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Post by Sandlight on Apr 16, 2012 23:36:48 GMT -6
Alright guys, so I figured we get the ideas up and running. I'll start with a few classes. Feel free to discuss and add your ideas as well.
Blackbelts Blackbelts are strong physical attackers, but they have always been a class that has no need for points in Willpower, even though they had abilities which involved Willpower. I feel like they can lean towards being some sort of hybrid class. Perhaps maybe the damage equations of the Blackbelt's abilities can be a function of Willpower as well as the current parameters. They can also get another ability that depends on Willpower to encourage the Willpower build.
Rangers One of the biggest problems I noticed with Rangers is that even though they have three transformations, they only use the Grizzly one. I know that the transformations do build upon another like Fire 1, 2, and 3, but I feel like that shouldn't be the case. Each transformation should be unique and can allow the Ranger to choose one that is appropriate to the type of battle they're in. Also, it would be interesting to see each transformation having their own unique set of abilities.
Redmages Many agree that Redmages are pretty strong and useful during the early parts of the game but fall heavily behind other specialized classes towards the end of the game. What I believe they're lacking is really just a signature ability. Doublecast I think can really optimize the potential of Redmages. It wouldn't be any two spells, but rather just 1 Black Magic spell and 1 White Magic spell. Also, Redmages should get some physical damage abilities to help improve their versatility. If they do get those physical damage abilities, there's the problem on how to make that happen.
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Soren
Hunter
To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Apr 16, 2012 23:40:27 GMT -6
I agree with all of this.
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Post by Kain on Apr 16, 2012 23:53:15 GMT -6
I had typed up some things about some of the classes, but I'll start with those three since they're the topic of discussion. Blackbelts Bear Strength: User can attack an enemy of their choosing after using Bear Strength.
Mantra: Can be used on other party members.
Bum Rush: User no longer takes damage from attack.
Counter Magic: Passive. When attacked with a magic spell, the user has a 20% chance to counterattack with Aurabolt.
Purify: 3 MP. User removes status effects from an ally. Same effect as Restore.
Inner Purity: Passive. 20% chance of automatically resisting a Weak, Slow or Lock effect.
My train of thought here is that though BBs wouldn't be capable of huge single-hit damage a la Knights and Dragoons, but would be a stable source of damage with helpful supportive skills. Rangers General Changes:
The player now chooses one Call to learn first, and the others are learned later. Calls in general are learned much earlier, as they no longer follow a linear progression. The stat increases and decreases of each Call start out smaller, but grow as the Ranger gains levels. The spells usable in Snake form are learned as the Ranger gains levels.
Call of the Fox: A basic, all-around form with no particular strengths or weaknesses.
Call of the Cougar: Emphasizes speed over power.
Call of the Grizzly: Slow, but a powerful tank.
Call of the Snake: A mage form that increases Willpower and MP and has access to more spells than an untransformed Ranger, but is more fragile. The Ranger loses access to Hunt in this form.
Spells accessible in Snake form only: Boost 2, Barrier 2, Lock 2, Healstorm 1, Cure 3, Restore, Ice 3, Fire, Fire 2, Fire 3, Lit, Lit 2, Lit 3
Calls are learned in the following order:
If chosen Call was Fox: Snake, Cougar, Grizzly If chosen Call was Cougar: Grizzly, Snake, Fox If chosen Call was Snake: Cougar, Fox, Grizzly If chosen Call was Grizzly: Fox, Cougar, Snake
My ideas for this aren't actually finished, but I think this would give Rangers more reason to use a form besides whichever one they received last. I hadn't yet thought of skills for the other Calls, though. Redmages General Changes:
Redmages can now Instill the Light element (effect equal to a Whitemage's Harm spell). Gains Shield 2, Barrier 2 and Lightstorm 2. Redmages can now attack an enemy in the same turn that they use Instill Element.
Demi: Removed.
Improved Instill Element: The user can now Instill an effect equal to a Fire 2, Lit 2, Ice 2 or Harm 2 spell.
[New Ability]: ?? MP. The user inflicts a status effect on an enemy causing them to take *2 damage from the element the user chose at the beginning of the game. Does not work on enemies that innately resist that element.
[New Ability]: ?? MP. On ally: The user converts an ally's Weak, Slow or Lock effect into an equivalent Boost, Fast or Shield effect. On enemy: The user converts an enemy's Boost, Fast or Shield effect into an equivalent Weak, Slow or Lock effect.
[New Ability]: ?? MP. The user casts Boost 1 and Fast 1 on themselves.
[New Ability]: ?? MP. The user casts Shield 1 and Barrier 1 on themselves.
[New Ability]: ?? MP. The user siphons MP from an enemy, restoring MP to an ally equal to 15% of the target ally's maximum MP. Cannot be used on themselves.
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Post by Sandlight on Apr 17, 2012 0:21:44 GMT -6
Blackbelts When I think of Mantra, I imagine more of the Blackbelt being in self-mediate mode somewhat,focusing mentally, and healing himself internally rather him throwing energy to heal another ally. This also applies to Purify. I'm fine with the changes to Bear Strength and Bum Rush and addition of Inner Purity. Giving Blackbelts another countering chance might be a little overboard.
Rangers I'm all for the addition of Call of the Snake but not it being a mage related form. I feel like the player should only get to use spells in human form so there's actually a purpose in being human form. What I am thinking for is this: Snake: speed Cougar: strength Grizzly: defense Fox: combination of the above 3
I like the idea of not following a linear progression. The 4 path is a start but maybe we can expand it more by letting the player choose what Call to get at the the 4 Call learning levels?
Redmages I'm fine with Improved Instill Element and having Harm as a new instill element. I'm not quite agreeing with the 3 unique spells. I don't think Redmages should doing fancy spells if the other mages can't do it.
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Post by Kain on Apr 17, 2012 0:49:06 GMT -6
BlackbeltsWhen I think of Mantra, I imagine more of the Blackbelt being in self-mediate mode somewhat,focusing mentally, and healing himself internally rather him throwing energy to heal another ally. This also applies to Purify. I'm fine with the changes to Bear Strength and Bum Rush and addition of Inner Purity. Giving Blackbelts another countering chance might be a little overboard. Perhaps, but the ally-healing could be its own skill; I just figured it could be given to Mantra since it's already there. I want to remove the monopoly that mages have on healing and status restoration. Call them something else, if you want. On the subject of Counter Magic, I don't think it would be too much - Aurabolt is a pretty weak spell. Of course, that could change if you want to give them more reasons to invest in WP, but I didn't make these abilities with that in mind. Fair enough on the magic thing. I'm fine with the Calls being distinguished in that way. As far as when they learn them, I made the order by which is "closest" to the form they picked; for example, you learn Grizzly last when choosing Cougar because the speedy, low-HP Cougar is the opposite of the slow, high-HP Grizzly. I'm okay with choosing the order, I suppose, but feel it would make more sense to learn things "closer" to what you initially chose. Not really something I feel strongly about, though. As Kija has said in the past, RMs are in a unique position, learning both White and Black magics. I don't think it's odd to learn spells that combine their characteristics, in a way. The only exception to that would be the weakness spell, but I feel there's a point where we need to think about gameplay first. Besides, one might argue that a BM or BLM could easily use Instill - they just don't, because they don't need to. Speaking of the weakness spell, I had thought of your basic weaker, non-elemental Nuke-esque spell, but I don't think that's something RMs should have. Honestly, I'm not sure RMs should be on par with other classes in the latter stages of the game due to their versatility.
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Post by Joker The Royale on Apr 18, 2012 16:58:51 GMT -6
I agree. Red Mages definitely need sometype of uber ability. Like you said, Double cast would be good. It'll help them keep up damage wise with attack spells, and almost be as good as Wms with a double heal cast, so that they get played more often. It's not right that alot of Classes dont get used as much as others, the Blackbelt is also another one that hardly gets used. and I agree with both Kain and Sand on the changes. BBs need some type of attack that uses Willpower as a base support stat. But, Mantra shouldnt be limited to just the BB itself, because I've been partied with one and it sucks, when you have two melees, one that can heal itself and one that can't and it blows. And I'm not so sure about Bum Rush Kain. If I run up and Bum rush someone, I'd probably get hurt a little bit, lol. I mean, it'd make more sense to take out the damage to self, because none of the other classes has a self afflicting attack. The problem with the Rangers are, nobody uses them in the way they're supposed to be. I mean, the instant they get a new call form, they use it, thinking they get a better one than the last. I mean, yeah Grizzlys great, but when in an ambush happens, they insta go for that, instead of one going for maybe more attack or a faster attack speed. And, if we're gonna branch off into that, why cant we have the mages elemental skills focus on the more realistic thing that happens. When you have fire coming towards you, you're gonna get burned, so maybe add a schorch damage for after the spell. If you get pelted by ice, hail and what not, it's gonna slow you down, plus make you more damageable to fire. I'm not sure what exactly lighting would do, other than you getting zapped at the moment. But... I think thats all I have on my brain right now.
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Post by Joker The Royale on Apr 21, 2012 15:29:48 GMT -6
Okay, so I've been thinking about some possible class changes, for now all I have is the knight done, heres what I got so far.
Possible Class Changes. Knights: - Maybe give them block instead of Fighters, to me Knights are supposed to be the greatest tanks, and protect people no? Well, maybe give them stronger magic defense as well, no matter the build, magic can really tear them a new one. - Change the HP gained from 9 to 10 or 11, it’s a slight change, but they should be beefier than most classes if they’re supposed to be good tanks - Give them Techniques like Leadership or something, knights usually try to increase morality when I fights. Possible give them something special, that non of the others have. - Remove Divide, (obviously), and maybe give them another area attack. Or replace it with a party technique. Possibly add in duel techs for Knights and mages, give them a Nuke sword for example. Stronger than a regular Knight techinique but far weaker than the nukes actual damage. Possibly take the knights strength+ the mages Willpower and add like… 50-110 damage or something. I think I remember Kija wanting to do something along the lines like that and I would like to see classes being able to interact like that. - Possibly up the charge for retort. With endless rebuttal, retort and a boost 3, if they get hit with Melee attacks, they can wipe out almost an entire boards of mobs, and there isn’t much strategy if they’re doing that or divide. Try to make the battles more fun and interesting. - Get rid of Render? Or decrease the effects of it, its not usually used that often anyway, and nobody will really notice if it gets nerfed a tad bit.
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Post by Kain on Apr 21, 2012 16:17:50 GMT -6
And I'm not so sure about Bum Rush Kain. If I run up and Bum rush someone, I'd probably get hurt a little bit, lol. I mean, it'd make more sense to take out the damage to self, because none of the other classes has a self afflicting attack. I wouldn't mind changing the name of the attack, as it's just another FF reference and seems kind of...brazen for a BB, like something a Fighter would do. Okay, so I've been thinking about some possible class changes, for now all I have is the knight done, heres what I got so far. Possible Class Changes. Knights: - Maybe give them block instead of Fighters, to me Knights are supposed to be the greatest tanks, and protect people no? Well, maybe give them stronger magic defense as well, no matter the build, magic can really tear them a new one. Can't agree with this. Fighters are basically the tanks in this game. I think their HP is fine as is. They get nearly as much HP per level as a Dragoon, but get more Vit per level than most other melees and a much better equipment selection. Magic is still a problem, but it's a problem for every melee, to some extent or another. I'm not sure they need something like Leadership, but I'm all for giving classes more abilities that aid the party. Everyone seems to be in agreement about removing both of these, along with other, similar moves. As for combination attacks, I want to see synergy between some classes, but nothing that overt. I agree with this. "Retort every round lol" is about as brainless as Jump spam.
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Post by Sur Realis on Apr 22, 2012 20:20:51 GMT -6
RE: Blackbelts
Recall that either Rand's or Kija's ideas for the class growth ended up with a branching "gray" mage for which Blackbelts could evolve to. Of course, we also have to keep in mind a few things that have led the THG class selection to be rather literal-minded, if confusing and repetitive at times.
(Save for the Knight-Fighter debate.)
With that said, it would definitely be viable to modify Blackbelts to branch more into a sort of "physical magic", if you will. After all, a large part of those Eastern philosophies and martial arts is the control of one's spiritual and physical self as one unit.
Blackbelts are the class that get the 75% # of hits thing, yes? Perhaps one huge thing is to have Willpower directly modify that, where 0 Willpower will have that passive only take you to about 55-100% of hits to as much as doing 150% of hits with a lot of Willpower. This would bring in a large decision on creating builds, especially given a choice between high raw damage and steady reliable damage.
RE: Rangers
One issue is that right now each of the transformations, while being starkly different from each other, do clearly scale off of each other instead of just having the base difference. This is because it is necessary to have some improvement in the Calls over the level growth, while still trying to have them be different.
Instead, I would like to suggest that each Call progresses through tiers itself, (e.g. Forest, Dire, & Dragon [Call]) with the Ranger being able to choose one -primary- Call. The primary Call would be the only one to reach Dragon tier, but they would still have access to Dire tier of the other two for such situations that call for it.
e.g. Level 1 - Forest Cougar (chosen) Level 7 - Forest Fox Level 11 - Forest Grizzly Level 16 - Dire Cougar Level 23 - Dire Fox Level 34 - Dire Grizzly Level 45 - Dragon Cougar
The Calls would then scale appropriately to tier, and perhaps having special skills unique to them.
RE: Redmages
Just remove them from the game, they suck about as much as Rand.
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Post by Sandlight on Apr 26, 2012 13:03:17 GMT -6
Blackbelts How about this, just to reach a compromise and to add variety to Blackbelts. Mantra can target any ally, however it's 100% heal when using it on yourself and 70% or whatever heal when using it on allies. When using Purify on yourself, you recover from negative ailments of all tiers; when using it on allies, they recover from negative ailments of tier 1 only.
Rangers I'm not sure but only one Call and only one transformation can be made once per battle right? If this is the case, I would want to remove this restriction and let Rangers transform freely. Also they can should be directly able to transform from animal form to another animal form without having human form in the transition.
The Calls boost a Ranger's stats as a percentage so I don't think we need higher tiers of Calls.
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Post by Kain on Apr 26, 2012 23:07:47 GMT -6
BlackbeltsHow about this, just to reach a compromise and to add variety to Blackbelts. Mantra can target any ally, however it's 100% heal when using it on yourself and 70% or whatever heal when using it on allies. When using Purify on yourself, you recover from negative ailments of all tiers; when using it on allies, they recover from negative ailments of tier 1 only. Depending on what the plan for BBs ultimately becomes, I may want to revist the percentage for Mantra (be it higher or lower), but I'm okay with this. That's correct, and I'm okay with removing that restriction since the Calls will be more unique now. As for letting them shift without going back to human form, I'm not sure. I feel like all that versatility should have some penalty or weakness attached to it, though it could be something totally unrelated to this. Currently, I worry that new!Rangers may be too good.
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Post by Sandlight on Apr 26, 2012 23:29:56 GMT -6
Blackbelts When I say 100%, I don't mean full healing of HP, just the full amount that is outputted from the ability equation. Just in case I worded it weirdly.
Rangers I just don't turns to be wasted and the process to be quicker. You would have to revert which takes one turn and then another turn to transform again.
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Post by Sur Realis on Apr 27, 2012 11:39:08 GMT -6
A solution to the Rangers idea would be to give them a unique type of MP bucket, where the Calls would have some steep costs, and then once they learn Hunt, not only will they receive HP back if the target of their Hunt is killed, but also they would receive a point of their particular MP. This way, in later areas, they could freely transform more commonly but the steep price demands that they only do so if it's truly beneficial to them.
The unique MP bucket does not necessarily have to conflict with the standard MP bucket, either.
edit: Perhaps only costing this unique MP to go from human to call?
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Post by Kain on Apr 27, 2012 18:26:27 GMT -6
BlackbeltsWhen I say 100%, I don't mean full healing of HP, just the full amount that is outputted from the ability equation. Just in case I worded it weirdly. Yeah, I got you. I meant that depending on how BBs turn out in terms of incentive to build WP, I might want the ally percentage to be higher or lower. Right, I understand where you're coming from and I agree with you. I'm just saying that all of this versatility should have some kind of downside. A solution to the Rangers idea would be to give them a unique type of MP bucket, where the Calls would have some steep costs, and then once they learn Hunt, not only will they receive HP back if the target of their Hunt is killed, but also they would receive a point of their particular MP. This way, in later areas, they could freely transform more commonly but the steep price demands that they only do so if it's truly beneficial to them. The unique MP bucket does not necessarily have to conflict with the standard MP bucket, either. edit: Perhaps only costing this unique MP to go from human to call? This could work. Give them their versatility, but encourage them to consider which form would be best for the situation so as not to waste MP. Not sure that's as large a drawback as I'd like, though. Depends on the numbers, I suppose. Edit: During a conversation on AdminSay, this proposal for Rangers came up: - Ranger picks one Call at the beginning and this is their only Call for the entirety of the game - Grows stronger and gains abilities, almost like a second character - Call would gain more abilities than in the All-Forms model Other ideas, mostly related to the All-Forms model: - Remove Call immunity to negative status effects (personally, I might push for this even in the Single-Form model, but I feel like it's a must for the All-Form one); perhaps go as far as to make forms more likely to suffer certain effects; still unaffected by positive status effects - Give fast form a resistance to Slow spells, tank form resistance to Lock - Give the fast form a % decrease in magic damage taken, give Grizzly a percentage increase - Each Call gains few abilities, three at the very most
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