This is Getting Tiring

[Kija]

Either you want to be here or not. I am getting tired of waiting for meetings, only to have a bunch of people not show up with not a single post that they were not going to be here. Constantine was on a few hours before the meeting, and then disappears. He left willing, hours before the meeting. Where is the post about work or some other plans? Nope, not there. Mahn, you said have raids every Monday, Tuesday, and Saturday, yet each time I posted a meeting for Monday, where was your request for it to be changed. Not just on Mondays, but also Tuesdays did you do this, until you personally suggested Mondays. You cannot post nothing, and then just sit on the conversation window playing World of Warcraft.

I sent Mahn, and everyone else, a bunch of files for the new teleport system. We had a discussion about it, including going to specific lines and people asking questions. Yet Mahn claims he never received the files. However, no matter how much you can claim that the send failed, you never bothered to say it and then went along with the conversation, pretending you were going to the lines stated. This is far worse. A month went by with me thinking someone was working on this, when in reality, all they were doing was playing World of Warcraft and faking their way through the conversation. This is not a good thing. We need work.

Version eight is far behind with a severe lack of work. Soren, how long has it been since you were working on that single floor and wall icon? How long does it take to make a floor and wall? This goes for everyone. And since I know people are going to bring it up. "What about you?" "You are still working on that battle system?" Yes, I am still working on it. Yes, it should have been finished a long time ago. But, I still have done a lot more work on it than certain other people have on their jobs. And not only that, I have also worked on other things besides programming. But yes, I admit, I need to work more too. The jobs you people have was because that is what you wanted to do. I do not like programming, so it is harder to get through and takes a little longer, but I still do it. So it comes down to this, do you want to be here? Do you want the current job you have? How long can you sit and say "Yes, I am still working on this." before it gets pointless?

So, I want everyone to post their thoughts and what they plan to do. I do not want people just mumbling through meetings pretending to do stuff while playing games. Either you are here or not. Either you are working or not. It is time to make up your mind.

[Soren]

Admittedly, I've been working around that since my ideas for what you want are pretty much shot. Although I have new things I'd like to try. This however doesn't mean that I've been doing nothing. I've been juggling this project around with other things, along with being just plain out booked as far as school goes. Right now I'm working on new desert icons. I think I might even be finished with that set, but I'm leaving it open before sending it to you in case more ideas for it come to me.

And Easter, which we skipped, I would have been perfectly happy to have made icons for. I was actually kinda looking forward to editting the older ones. I prefer having a set of what I'm doing finished before I send it in. That being said, I do indeed attend the majority of meetings. Most of my missed ones aren't because I'm busy playing another game or something, it's usually completely unexpected on my part. And yet I do still manage. I caught the ass of this one, and I admit it -was- my fault for not being there this time, and I'm willing to take full blame.



I find it extremely ironic you choose to bring me into this. Above anyone, I believe Tral has slacked the most, and you haven't talked about him once. He should have gotten the bump ages ago. New music is one thing we can add into the game without it all coming at once, and I don't care what you say, it does not, and should not be taking him THAT long. Is he only still here because he is your brother? Mahn's friend? That's all good and well, but we need someone a bit better than him to play the part.

[Kain]

If you wanna find a replacement for me, go ahead. I have problems much bigger than THG, I've become bored with the game (actually, I became bored with it long ago, but the community kept me coming back) and I don't like the direction you want to take it in. I think you're being WAY too ambitious and are expecting entirely too much out of a bunch of amateurs. I think you're straying too far from what's in place now and I just get shot down whenever I say anything about it, so I just decided to keep my mouth shut. No one but you seems to be doing any work, either (a vicious cycle, I must admit) and the worst offenders among us are never called on it. So all that being said, what motivation do I (or anyone else who feels the way I do) have to keep working on anything?

[Kija]

Actually, I was planning to remove him from the Brotherhood list and just forget about him. I did not mention him in the post because he was not going to ever check the forums to read about it. At this moment, I have already pretended he is not here anymore.

Well, if you no longer have any motivation, then I do not want you to feel like you have to stick around and just not say anything. If you feel like you want to leave, please do. Although, you would be missed.

There have been certain disagreements about the direction of the game, but what is wrong about trying to take the game in a bigger direction? What the game currently is, is not exactly what it was suppose to be either.

[Soren]

I think the game should majorly stick to the way it already is. It's great. You have big ideas, but most of them just don't feel like they fit.

It's my belief that maybe you should take those ideas, and start work on a new game instead of cramming them into THG.

[Kija]

They fit for what the game is suppose to be. The current game is filled with grinding and pointless aspects that take away from the main goal of the game.

But if you think that the changes go against the main goal of the game, then please give me a few specific examples on what is wrong with them.

[Soren]

It's not that they go against the main goal of the game, it's just that they don't feel right. The grinding can go..yet sadly that's a big part of the game and what attracts people to it. It takes time to get from point A to point B and they use that time to chat with other people while ruthlessly killing monsters. I have a feeling the game will be simply too short without all that time.

And I don't feel that your idea with less monsters will help the issue any more. Which is another thing that I feel attracts people (other than the Final Fantasy resemblances). People like having huge parties of 8 and fighting a huge slew of monsters.




Furthermore, every time you tell us about an idea of yours, you reference another game. Usually World of Warcraft or Lord of the Rings. I don't want THG to turn into a mini WoW, no thanks. It's funny you tell US to make original things, yet your own ideas aren't exactly original, just taken from what you have seen in another game.

[Kija]

It was not meant to be a mini-World of Warcraft, nor were all of the ideas I gave were based off of it. Although, sure, I suppose you can just pick out the ones that were and say those were all of my ideas. Funny indeed. And the ones that were, they were only based off it, not directly taken. For instance, I said it would be interesting if fighters used rage instead of MP. I think it is a great idea. It fits the class well. Yes, World of Warcraft has warriors that use rage as well, but it works well. That does not mean it has to be exactly the same. You use what works well.

I feel disappointed that you will actually defend grinding as a good thing. If you have not forgotten, you are suppose to be an investigator investigating, not running back and forth in a single spot grinding. I am not saying make the game go faster, I am saying make investigating a bigger part of the game, so that instead of running back and forth, you are exploring a ruined city and finding cool things. You still level, but you are actually doing something.

Having fewer monsters can help a lot, especially with the other changes I mentioned. I know that some people enjoy the huge monster aspect, but that does not mean that smaller biggers cannot be just as intense. They can allow for more strategy and situations that cannot be done in larger battles without it just turning into a bunch of people flinging as many area spells as possible. Also, one of the things I mentioned in the small battles was having a smaller size creature, which could appear in larger packs. This would allow to have larger battles, and also smaller battles in more balanced ways.

[Kain]

Apr 14, 2008 22:00:10 GMT -6 Kija said:

Well, if you no longer have any motivation, then I do not want you to feel like you have to stick around and just not say anything. If you feel like you want to leave, please do. Although, you would be missed.

I've been thinking about retiring for quite some time...but have never actually been able to do it. Perhaps if things within THG/the BH were changed, I'd feel more compelled to do some work, but I've been "out" of it for a long time. I guess this whole clusterfuck will decide what I'll do.

There have been certain disagreements about the direction of the game, but what is wrong about trying to take the game in a bigger direction? What the game currently is, is not exactly what it was suppose to be either.

"Bigger" is not my problem; my problem is that you want "bigger" from such a small team of amateurs. I think you're asking for too much at once. Like, why do we need original icons for the Spire now? Yeah, some people would bitch and moan about more recolors, but I think that as a whole, the players would just be happy that the damn thing finally came out. Also, I think using original icons at this point would just look out of place compared to the rest of the game (I remember bringing this up when you were first talking about it and everyone thought I was on drugs, I swear). Things like original icons and music are just bells and whistles that can come later when we don't have more important things to do.

As for the battle system, it could use some changes but I think the things you're proposing are way too drastic (and too ambitious as well). I have no problems with a "bigger" battle system (insofar as things like equipment granting you certain abilities/effects, new skills for both enemies and allies, etc.) as long as it stays true to what it is now (note that I mean the battle system itself and not stuff like endless level-grinding).

[Soren]

Apr 14, 2008 22:27:48 GMT -6 Kija said:

Having fewer monsters can help a lot, especially with the other changes I mentioned. I know that some people enjoy the huge monster aspect, but that does not mean that smaller biggers cannot be just as intense. They can allow for more strategy and situations that cannot be done in larger battles without it just turning into a bunch of people flinging as many area spells as possible. Also, one of the things I mentioned in the small battles was having a smaller size creature, which could appear in larger packs. This would allow to have larger battles, and also smaller battles in more balanced ways.

Right there. That's a huge change I don't particularly think I'd like to see in the game. You're saying it's a good idea, but in the player's perspective it's as if something they like has just been stripped from them. There is already a decent amount of strategizing (especially for boss fights,) and I'm afraid that will just be -too- much. Using your head is a good thing, but you have to remember.. Most of BYOND's inhabitants are idiots.

The added things for investigating. While they incorporate to the story, I don't see how they incorporate to the much-loved multi-player aspect of the game. I can't see a group finding a lost parcel of some sort in-game, and then discussing its contents as a group instead of just running around to slay more monsters. I'm not saying story details to investigate are a bad idea, however. It's just not a huge deal as you'd think to what the players (majorly) are after.

Next, the grinding. It's bad, yes. But some people aren't anti-social. Some people like having something to do while they talk to other players. Some people log into the game JUST to talk to people. I think in an odd way it's one of the better parts to the game.

[Kija]

I think you are interpreting to be bigger than what it actually is. For instance, the new icons. I have shown examples of new icons, such as the dark imp and smiler.

And then the holiday icons. I do not expect icons to look any better than that. I am no expert in this. I am just an amateur, as we all are. That is version eight, right there. If we can make examples, we can make the game.

The reason why I wanted to have version eight with the new icons is because if we did not, a whole lot of the area would have to be redone with the new icons were out, which would just be even more work for something that could have done right the first place. And then for the new battle system, at least the one that I want to do, the size system changes, which would be icon changes for them as well, as more of a required thing.

I love the new battle system ideas. But I know some people prefer the old way. There is not much that can be done to change people's mind about this other than for them to try it out and decide. But I do not think I would ever be able to convince you to change your mind on it. I think they are neccesary and far better. You do not.

The new investigation changes is to make the game what it is meant to be. It can easily work well in multiplayer if done correctly. If that means that some people do not want to investigate, then fine, but I love atmosphere, and the plot deserves to be brought forward in better ways. If you do not believe me, speak to people in the game, and I mean the real fans. Ask them about plot interaction and see what they say. In fact, I will just tell you what they will say. "Please, do it. The plot is awesome, and I hate it to see it go to waste." Should we really deny the true fans of the game the true potential of the game just so some dumber people can enjoy it? This goes for the battle system as well. You can grind if you want, but for those that want to explore and interact with the game, it would be there. It is not as if we are disabling you from walking back and forth in a single spot.

[Soren]

There's not very many of these "true fans." The only one I can think of off the top of my head is probably Kumog. My thoughts aren't to make the game enjoyable by a small group, but to increase the popularity beyond what it already is. I don't want people who already enjoy the game to feel abandoned, which is what will probably happen if everything you want changed is changed.

Once again, the investigation aspects are not a bad idea, I just doubt they'll really have much of an impact to the playerbase.

[Kija]

Well, that is your problem then. You care too much about being popular than making a good game. Player amount is not the most important thing. Look at the Naruto game with over 100 players. Sure, they have over 100 players, but does that make it a good game?

[Kain]

Apr 14, 2008 22:47:41 GMT -6 Kija said:

I think you are interpreting to be bigger than what it actually is. For instance, the new icons. I have shown examples of new icons, such as the dark imp and smiler.
[image]
And then the holiday icons. I do not expect icons to look any better than that. I am no expert in this. I am just an amateur, as we all are. That is version eight, right there. If we can make examples, we can make the game.

I wasn't thinking of the quality of the icons (though that's a factor) so much as the amount that would have to be made combined with your perfectionist tendencies. That's a hell of a lot of icons and we have just two people dedicated to making them, one of whom is hardly ever around.

The reason why I wanted to have version eight with the new icons is because if we did not, a whole lot of the area would have to be redone with the new icons were out, which would just be even more work for something that could have done right the first place.And then for the new battle system, at least the one that I want to do, the size system changes, which would be icon changes for them as well, as more of a required thing.

I don't keep up with BYOND development (and it never crossed my mind, honestly) so I don't know when that change would be necessary (if it would be at all), but fair enough. Again, making unique icons for that area along with all the others is a lot of work for just one or two people. I should note that I don't think it's acceptable to make everyone do icons for holidays and such when we have people who are on the staff for the sole purpose of making icons.

(Just to make sure we're clear here, I wasn't interpreting "bigger" as literally being "size"... -_- I knew what you meant.)

I love the new battle system ideas. But I know some people prefer the old way. There is not much that can be done to change people's mind about this other than for them to try it out and decide. But I do not think I would ever be able to convince you to change your mind on it. I think they are neccesary and far better. You do not.

I just don't think we should throw the baby (and most of the players, probably) out with the bathwater. If you have problems with people spamming area spells and neglecting status effects, try working within the current system to give players an incentive to use status effects over area spells. A Magic Defense stat would go a long way, for example.

If you don't think we'll be changing each others' minds on this (and we probably won't), then I guess there's no need to continue.

[Soren]

That's exactly what I was getting at when I said the majority of BYOND are idiots.

You see, we already HAVE a good game. It's popular enough, too. And when version 8 is released, it'll probably be overwhelming. Hell it'll probably skyrocket in number once Geyzer alone is here. I'm worried about losing the players we already have. And your changes won't necessarily make a good game.

[Kija]

So, you are saying, removing grinding, adding more interaction with the story, fixing the battle system, adding unique graphics, a new area is not going to make a better game? I guess I have been doing this all wrong. We actually need more grinding. We will make you level faster, but add in a bunch of pointless areas that all look the same with a bunch of super moves, and then give away free adminstration. I bet we would be pretty popular then.

[Soren]

Apr 14, 2008 23:16:24 GMT -6 Kija said:

So, you are saying, removing grinding, adding more interaction with the story, fixing the battle system, adding unique graphics, a new area is not going to make a better game? I guess I have been doing this all wrong. We actually need more grinding. We will make you level faster, but add in a bunch of pointless areas that all look the same with a bunch of super moves, and then give away free adminstration. I bet we would be pretty popular then.

Very funny. I've said none of that, you're just making it appear as if I'm on the wrong, here. And mockingly. I'm unsure if I'm for the removal of anything. I've said it before, we already have a great game. YOU are against many of the things that people have come to enjoy about the game.

Let's see..what was another one of your ideas? Being able to control monsters was it? Okay, let me make this clear since you're not worried about the game's player amount:

We already have parties of 8 people, maximum. That's a lot of people on its own. So with 8 required to make a full party and have more fun with the game, what about those who insist on controlling said monsters? They'll have something to do other than help out/play with others in the main parts of the game.

Just HOW are we going to manage that without enough people playing in the first place? Bad idea, shouldn't be done. Maybe under CURRENT circumstances we could do it (and that's a BIG maybe,) but it's an impossibility once all the players have left due to their game being ruined for them.

And just what about the battle system needs "fixing" anyway? =\ How do you know it'll fix it? What IS your definition of "fix"? Is it perhaps "to make it how I want to see it, and not care about what others think one bit"?

[Kija]

I said that because you seem intent on thinking that being popular is more important. Most of your arguements center around "Well, the players are stupid, and this what they like and may leave if we change it." So, I gave you a suggestion on how to get more players, since that is what it seems you want.

Being able to control monsters would be fun, but most people would still want to level up their characters, so it would not be a problem with the amount of players. And since the game would be able to be soloed easier, having a larger party would not be as important.

A lot of the battle system needs fixing. I went over a lot of the problems in that text file I sent everyone. I will repaste it here rather than typing it all again.

---- Battle stuff ----

Instant Death:
All instant kill and percent health damage based abilities should be removed, for both players and creatures. They are too overpowered and hurt the strategy of the game, relying more on chance than strategy and true challenge. There are many abilities players and creatures can have that can allow them to have better choice for different situations that will make the game be more challenging and fun, without having to annoy or ruin the strategy of the game.

Battle size:
There should be consideration on redoing the amount of creatures encountered and what appears. Currently, you will fight a very large amount of creatures. But because of this, anything beyond trying to do as much damage as fast as possible becomes useless, since with so many creatures, no creature can be balanced correctly beyond it. Most battles end up casting a bunch of area spells and then spamming some damage spells to kill off the rest.

With setting it up to be more situational and overall a lesser amount of creatures, they could be balanced to have a more strategic approach. Instead of fighting around 20 creatures, you may instead fight just eight. With these fewer creatures, there can be more focus on single actions, making single based attacks more useful, and abilities that do not rely on pure damage as well. With many creatures, status affects become mostly useless, since you cannot balance creatures to be high enough in stats for them to be useful with the spell, or otherwise making everything an area attack.

When you have a lesser amount of creatures, this is no longer a problem. With the focus on single creatures, you can have multiple attacks and situations. In one battle, you may come across a fast creature, so someone uses slow on him to help reduce his speed, so he would be dodgeable. Another may do a lot of damage but is sort of slow, they decide to cast slow to make him even more slow and very easily dodgeable.

The time taken in a single battle would be around the same, but the creatures would last longer, allowing for more things and focus on them. In a large amount of creatures, this is much harder to do, since they would usually end up dying before anything else can be done to them.

As stated before, it will be balanced to help be more situational. This is to help make sure you do not have to cast status spell every single battle in order to survive. And also make sure that you can more choices beyond just spamming your damage ability. This will be done by adding more creatures and adding in rarety. Stronger creatures would require more debuffing in order to be survived, but would appear less often and not flood the battle. Dealing with the amount of creatures, although they would be lesser, there are exceptions. A new creature size would be introduced, making the types: large, normal, and small. Small creatures will be more likely to appear in much greater numbers, and sometimes in packs. This allows area spells to have specific uses beyond hitting other sized creatures. They could be used to take out a large amount of small creatures, and then have others focus on the larger creatures. This creates different situations and more choices.

With stronger creatures, this also means that other classes need ways to deal with him. Each situation can have multiple ways to solve, and depending on the class, they will have their own strategy to do so. For instance, if a creature is really deadly and needs to be reduced, a mage may cast a status spell like slow or weak to help reduce him. As a blackbelt, you do not have access to slow and weak spells, but you do have great fighting abilities. With something like, bone strike, you do a powerful strike aimed at the weakest part of someone's bone, breaking it and weakening the creature. This would have the same affect as a weak, but done with a different class in a different way. But, not all abilities are just clones of eachother, as we want each class to be unique and do things differently. If this creature had strong physical resistance, and breaking his bone would not work, the thief may decide to help reduce his attacks by distracting him instead. By extending his shadow, he can form it to look like another person. This can help distract creatures, and the creature would then attack other people less often, allowing him to reduce the damage done. The fighter, one who strives on his rage, his attacks are less formed, but can still pack a lot power. He decides he wants to charge the creature, stunning it for a while. These are only examples, however, and as the classes become more formed, their abilities and style can be better set.

With these new creature set and abilities, as it was stated before, it also allows for more focus. With this focus, players can better work together on a single creature to achieve greater goals by combining different abilities. The previous fighter ability could be combined with another's attack that can only be done if the creature is stunned, or another that does extra damaged when stunned. So, the fighter may decide to stun the creature, to help setup the attack for others to do even more damage than would normally be possible. This allows different classes to better work together, rather than simple attacking random creatures with no real cooperation beyond killing everything together.

Beyond the ability and usefulness advantages, there are also advantages dealing with a fewer amount of party members. People who are by themselves would be able to solo easier and gain experience at a better pace. So, if you are unable to find a party, would still be able to do okay.

[Soren]

I don't at all see how you think that's such a great idea over what we already have. As far as spells that need to be removed, the only one I agree on is Quarter.

As far as Rub hurting the strategy of the game, the only place I'VE personally found it useful is against Titans. Other than that it's just felt way too risky. But on the flip side it's like a gamble. You're wanting to remove it, I'm assuming, because you also would like to see less monsters on the field at once, thus making the spell abusable. I believe the monster amount shouldn't be touched.



I also do NOT see how a monster using Rub hurts the challenge. I find it more challenging, and quite epic. If you're thinking it's a bad way for the players to miss out on experience, that itself can be tweaked. I think there's a thread somewhere on here that suggested experience based off the battle before death.

[Kija]

I do not see at all how you do not. It does hurt the strategy, no matter what the chance. There are plenty of better abilities that can replace lame instant kill abilities. They are not worth being in the game.

[Soren]

That's not so.. If you're so worried about the attack on later enemies, why not make Rub useless on them, instead of removing the spell entirely? From what I've seen, up until Titans, it's really just a spell that's there to be there. It's not like it's being abused. I rarely ever see anyone use it at all except maybe from sheer boredom, or for a laugh, or to just see if it'll work (the gamble). The attack has a high chance of failing, and it's risky.

If ANY insta-kill technique in the game should be removed, it is Divide. Rub and Bloody Murder aren't as heavily relied on. Maybe you've been watching Dye too much.

[Kija]

Why keep a pointless spell then? No ability with the chance of instant kill should be in the game. It does not matter at what level or at what point in the game. There are plenty of better options classes can have that will allow them to have more strategy and options other than "lol, i hope this works this time" "whoo, that creature with over 500 health is dead in one hit lol". That is not fun. That is not good.

[Soren]

What's not fun about that? Sure sounds like the imaginary people in those quotes were having fun to me.

[Kija]

Yes, the people quoted found it a little fun, but most people who want a good game do not find it fun. How many times do you hear people complain about rub from evil spirits? Or how pointless rub is? They would much prefer different and far better options. I know do.

[Soren]

People will complain about any attack as long as it pwns them.

Most of the time you can insta-kill something with another move anyhow, and do it much more accurately. Monsters cannot (unless it's Magora,) but the players sure can. They use it mainly (unless at Titans, once again,) to suit their mood and try it just to try it. Most Blackmages in a party are spamming area spells and insta-killing a slew of enemies, so I don't see why you're complaining about a single-target spell that'll PROBABLY miss.

[Kija]

Because the spell is pointless and worth no strategy. Anything that can instantly kill something should never be in a game. That is just how it is.

[Soren]

He's too silly to post himself, so I'll include what Kain has to say:

Beev says:
First of all, how the hell does he know what "most people" find fun?
Beev says:
Second of all, they'd bitch if they got killed either way.
Beev says:
Third of all, how the hell does he know what other people would prefer?
Beev says:
Why doesn't he just come out and admit that these are all things HE wants and there happens to be some overlap on one or two things that other people *do* want (like more viable soloing).

[Kija]

When did I ever say it was not what I wanted either? I even said "I know I do." How is that vague? I know that a lot of people want it that way because every time it is brought up in the game, many people say they like the change. Yes, people would still complain if they were killed. But that is not the point. Dying is not the problem. How you die is the problem. Being instantly killed is stupid. Dying because the creatures used more unique abilities in unique situations that centered around strategy is much more fun. And, yes, that is what I think too. I know do. Yep, that is what I want.

I said it three times now in different ways. It should be pretty clear then.

[Soren]

I have a way to fix that then.

We should create a poll. The topic shall be "How do you feel about the spell Rub?"

The choices shall be:

- I like certain monsters and players having it.

-I like certain monsters having it, but not players.

-I don't like monsters having it, but I like players having it.

-I don't like it at all.

[Kain]

Damn Soren. Ugh. *stabs*

Apr 15, 2008 0:38:47 GMT -6 Kija said:

When did I ever say it was not what I wanted either? I even said "I know I do." How is that vague? I know that a lot of people want it that way because every time it is brought up in the game, many people say they like the change.

My point was that these were things only you wanted. So what if you've brought it up and people have reacted favorably? Do you have a playable demo of this wondrous new battle system to show off for them? Really, you think your ideas are so great, but they're untested, they're only on paper and the people who are responding to the change probably aren't part of the general BYOND population (really, I think the fact that BYOND is full of morons has more implications for your battle system than you realize). Nothing is fullproof, no matter how fantastic you make this new system sound; you're just gonna end up with a bunch of people who exploit one particularly effective technique/strategy/whatever and use it all the time, then you'll probably try to nerf said things and end up with a bunch of weak abilities. Gee, that sounds familiar. Wonder where I've heard it before...?

Yes, people would still complain if they were killed. But that is not the point. Dying is not the problem. How you die is the problem. Being instantly killed is stupid. Dying because the creatures used more unique abilities in unique situations that centered around strategy is much more fun. And, yes, that is what I think too. I know do. Yep, that is what I want.

And how many enemies right now use Rub? Two. And how often does an Evil Spirit use Rub: five percent of the time? Magora uses it more often, but all you have to do is decrease the chance that she'll use it and your "problem" is marginalized. You act as if this is some...epidemic when it's not. As for your "unique abilities" and "unique situations," again, all of this is on paper. Quit acting like what you're doing is indisputably better than what we have now when you don't even have the thing up and running yet.

Anyways, last post in this topic; I'm done. Damn Soren.