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Post by lordphoenix on Nov 24, 2008 23:35:45 GMT -6
So, I so often see in the bannings and disciplines and threads related thereof, what I hesitantly call debate on what makes a good administrator, or what entails good administration. Quite frankly, I don't find that most people around here take the time to learn quite what the fuck they're talking about before spouting their opinions on the subject. They clamor for acts of hardass administration until a Mahn comes along passing it out. They clamor for an easygoing type who will let players decide their own differences, then bitch about lazy Soren this and afk Kija that. They constantly whine about whatever style of moderation is counter to their own personal and biased interests.
"So what LP? We're talking about a bunch of 13 year old online gamers after all, you expect any less?" No, of course not. What troubles me is that this isn't a theater that has limited itself to the playerbase. I see many barbs flying between our very own brotherhood, some hidden, some blatant, all concerning to an ostensibly neutral party such as myself. It raises a question to mind, one that many more people should be asking themselves, and that is just what exactly constitutes good moderation.
At what point do the lines become black and white? At what point does it become unacceptably damaging to question the decisions of the moderators over you, or in the case of a mod, to publicly challenge the decisions of another, subtly or no? I for one have already asked that question in my many moons as a BYONDer, through my share of experiences as both regulatory staff and player. For one, it is absolutely, totally, unacceptable to publicly call the merits of a FELLOW MODERATOR into consideration, with or without any measure of subtlety. Players and players alone should be the one questioning the merit of a moderator openly, don't think for a moment that I stand against that (plenty of my past postings would speak otherwise). It becomes a problem when staff members carry out these open musings. It creates an air of contention that is completely and utterly unneeded and is not for one second lost on players. You don't want that kind of stigma hanging over your staff if you want your staff or your game, by extension, to be taken seriously.
Next point to pick on is the idea of fairness and balance and what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Bullshit. One would certainly hope that a moderation crew is chosen at least in part on the strength of their good judgment abilities. Just because one little asshole was dealt with a certain way doesn't mean the next has to be. If you're a particularly big shit, I fully believe an example should be made out of you. I'm sorry if one asshole censor evaded repeatedly and received a bunch of warnings, and you bypassed once and got thrown in the love tank with bubba. There's circumstances to consider, sometimes things are going to be more lax when there's a certain crowd of players around or it's a slow night. This being the case does not mean a person is guilty of poor decision making. Especially in a game with a consistent crowd of players like this one, admins get to know you, they get to know who can rein in their immaturity of their own accord, and who needs to see a good public ass beating take place before they can control themselves. I am not advocating a privileged class of players existing, I am advocating that rules and the violations thereof need to be examined with a heavy dose of context. If a guy posts a porn link at 4am when 7 28 year old social recluses are online, don't fucking crack the banhammer across his skull, I don't care how nasty it was. If he spammed the damned thing or did it to a full crowd of prime time 12 year old players, blow him and the city he lives in to hell, he deserves it.
Finally, a main sticking point to address is the prevalence of the idea of being too harsh and punishment reductions. This is a huge sign of weakness and yet another way players will try to manipulate the system, further increasing your own headache and workload. One of the reasons this comes up so often is that I see so little directness in the length and nature of a ban. "Ur banned and ur never fucking coming back ok" is pretty unrealistic, so every time I see posts made of this nature I'm rather saddened at the fact. "Go away for a couple days/weeks/months" is not only vague and very open to needless interpretation and argument, it also gives the player in question plenty valid grounds to pester you and be a pain in everyone's ass with stupid threads. Going back to the issue of good judgment, When you levee punishments, very strict schedules must be set, and these schedules must not waiver. "You're being banned for exactly 6 months for posting blatantly offensive materials at a peak hour. Your ban will expire on May 25, 2009. If you try to log in at this time and are not able, post a reminder in this thread, or proceed to make a new one. Any postings or messagings in regard to the matter before that point will only serve to lengthen your sentence. The severity of that lengthening will be determined by the nature and frequency of posting/messaging violations." I simply do not see any other acceptable way to carry out disciplinary actions than in the format posed above, and it's truly unacceptable how rarely that format of punishment is used around here.
Bottom line, administrating is really a very simple job, provided you have a strong grasp of situational context and good judgment coupled to it. If you do not, you have no business administrating in the first place. I welcome comments, addendums, and debate. I do not welcome poorly constructed posts or petty argument. Use your brain when you type in this thread or close the hell out of it. Hopefully no one will decide to lock this, I'm looking forward to seeing some minds put to use within it.
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xarith
Investigator
15%
Eternally Bored
Posts: 21
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Post by xarith on Nov 25, 2008 3:36:37 GMT -6
I realize that I wasn't there for this whole banning situation but I don't feel that you should openly flame administrators in a forum thread.
I've read up on everything and I didn't feel that Blazer should've been banned until his hissy-fit. The proper punishment was handed out...why? Because Rand felt that it was necessary and you, as a player, can't stop that.
If you had a problem with how Rand handled the situation, talk to RAND, not the entire fuckign community.
With that being said, I do have one HUGE PROBLEM with the ban... Rand posted his IP in Wsay. Bad idea.
VERY bad idea.
But I don't care. Just thought I'd put that last little bit in.
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Post by Sur Realis on Nov 25, 2008 5:22:31 GMT -6
I see I have missed something very important in that I was busy talking to people and then sleeping.
Wasn't this same problem going on over in FFO for a while?
I am saddened that this seems to occur on all worthwhile BYOND games.
Sure, administrating is a simple job. Yeah, LP couldn't be more right. Someone breaks a rule, you deal with them accordingly based on the severity of the rule, repetition of it being broken, and intention of the person who broke it.
But come on.
They aren't fucking paid to do this job. We are lucky to have administrators at all. Lazy Soren this, AFK Kija that. At least we have them. I've seen many BYOND games, many servers crash and burn because the wrong person was given admin. Hell, back when I was 13 or so I was the cause of an SS13 server going to hell and back. (In my defense, it was a miscommunication/misunderstanding on my part, not power-crazed madness.)
What better way to come home from a day of work to see that some immature brat has logged on a game, making trouble, and players are shitting themselves wanting them banned, right?
Get over it. He was fucking banned. So what? And if this problem is entirely about him being banned ONLY because he said he was quitting, I recall another incident happening before when Thyger said he was quitting forever and Mahn helped him along with that notion with a nice square Banjolnir Permaban(tm). A total of like two people complained for like two seconds then shut up. Why is everyone going apeshit different for Blazer?
I stand by my belief that there is no 'perfect government', and by extension, even though it is a smaller scale, there is no 'perfect moderation'. I'm sure someone here remembers the discussion. There is no perfect person. People can't be perfect. Therefore there is no perfect judgment. No perfect direction. Sometimes it is just a crapshoot, y'know. We can thrive to be perfect, but we won't reach it, just like we thrive to know more, but the more we learn the more we don't know. In fact, I'll even give a quote from Sir Arthur Eddington, concerning our knowledge of the universe.
"Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, but it is stranger than we can imagine."
Don't comment on this quote unless you see how I connect it to this little debate here.
Anyone that wants to piss and moan, I'm up to declaring you couldn't do a better job.
Edit - As humans, we live in a world of grays. There is no white, no black. The 'right' thing isn't always, if ever, apparent, and it changes from person to person. Religion is a good example of this, but not necessarily the only thing. And don't bring up any bullshit about sin of omission or anything: Yes, the right thing to do when you see a man raping some little girl on the street is to stop him, but... the problem with this, is, I've never been walking down the street, and all of a sudden I see a man raping some little girl. I'm sure that if the crime were to ever occur in front of me, I would stop it, but I would never expect the crime to ever occur and I see it. That example is bullshit anyway. What about the crime you commit every day, or the crime you let commit on you every day? Either you climb up the ladder and step on people or let people step on you to climb up the ladder, and if you want to bring up sin of omission, then we are all sinning, every moment. Why would I want to tattle on someone that I saw cheating? Then they will hate me. Hate begets enemies. Enemies are a hassle. What do I get for tattling? Being the teacher's pet. I do enough of that by making 100s on tests I don't study for.
If you want to bitch and complain about someone's own moderating, I'd suggest you take a step back and look over your own choices.
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Post by Rand on Nov 25, 2008 6:58:46 GMT -6
Anyone who wants to change that can be promised to have me care again. =)
Exactly. This all started because someone decided to play Devil's Advocate instead of talk to me directly, and now we have TWO people doing it, after the FIRST thread was posted on by Constantine who need I remind, didnt seem to be at all disapproving of me or what I did. That alone should tell you largely of what the rest oft he situation will be like. But I guess that means LOL make your own thread about it and slightly word it differently, right?
Mahn banned Thyger exactly the same way, and Thyger didnt even do as much to get banned, yet Mahn heard from him he wanted to quit anyway and helped him along. I myself have done it more than once for people as well. How is this ANY different?
I'll tell you how. Because you're all a little more bored than you were last time, and this gives you something to do, something to try to feel big about, challenging the "big bad admin Rand" over a decision he had to make because he was once again called in to deal with something. Welp, not anymore boys and girls. =)
I'm gonna let things burn and go to hell in a handbasket now, and maybe then we won't see so many people BITCH when I do what I've done for over a year, in such a fashion.
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Post by Sur Realis on Nov 25, 2008 9:42:48 GMT -6
He'll huff, and he'll puff, and blow your house down. Lolol.
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Post by lordphoenix on Nov 25, 2008 11:10:29 GMT -6
Now this is utterly disappointing, I'm trying to bring up a valid discussion and you're all painting it as me advocating for this latest moron that was banned. That's simply not the case, I have not stated any flames or personal opinions towards anyone in the above paragraphs, and if you want to claim otherwise, taking the remarks in the context of the statement ought to clear up any confusion.
Painting it as an issue of finding excuses to tangle with the brotherhood also displeases me. I don't have any need of excuses to do so, the near constant warning level under my name is a good reminder of that. I just see events that spark desire for an intelligent discussion and I try to hold said intelligent discussion. I would expect that every now and then the community might show some maturity and engage in such.
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BigFatBob
Explorer
[glow=pink,4,150]Apprentice Soloist[/glow]
You can put TEXT here? AWESOME!
Posts: 71
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Post by BigFatBob on Nov 25, 2008 12:02:48 GMT -6
Look, no matter how intelligent or elaborate that post up there is, after I read it, it still conveyed one simple message, IMO, and that message is "You guys need to learn how to administrate." Very well-thought out and well-written post, but if I were a member of the BH, I'd be insulted after reading it.
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Post by Sur Realis on Nov 25, 2008 12:48:12 GMT -6
Now this is utterly disappointing, I'm trying to bring up a valid discussion and you're all painting it as me advocating for this latest moron that was banned. Now, I'm sorry that it showed up like that. I really am. I actually mostly agree with you, but I just wanted to take the time to point out that the Brotherhood is doing a service for free. I was less ranting at you, as I was to the community in general, full of people that are always whining and shit. Really, I'm not an exception, the logs I have of reporting 15 people in June who are now permabanned proves it. You also aren't an exception either. I took what you said: And ran with it, putting my own thoughts on the matter. Apparently not if you are going to get pissy that I actually took the time to type something up that somewhat contradicts what you say. Would you rather me not use my brain and just type something like, "lolol lp u suk dont be hating on nate u pos"?
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Post by Bolt on Nov 25, 2008 16:05:10 GMT -6
Well in spite of all that I've read I came to the same conclusion of "You people need to be better admins." All in all Realis is right, they do a free service to make the game better for everyone. If someone gets banned for breaking a rule that they know about their own fault. If they get banned for sayin they quit for good it helps keep a good record of who is banned.
I may not be good at arguments but you gotta realize somethin LP, when someone has power they follow the guidelines that are set already, judging them how they see fit or how people in their same position would do it. Admins run things how they see it work or have seen it done before. Rarely do you see the Brotherhood ban for no particular reason. Theres always a reason behind their ban or how they respond to an action.
The example you guys brought up bout Thyger or w/e, if he was quittin for good and wanted to help keep it for good, theres really no problem is there? If Thyger stated, I wouldn't know, that he is quitting FFHG and not coming back theres nothing wrong. Mahn did what he saw was the right option.
Yes I know I'm not good at being clear on what I mean but if you have the intelligence that you've shown you should be able to figure out what I mean by it.
All in all, each staff member for any game has their own way of dealing with situations of how things are done. If a rule is broken and it has a ban for a punishment then let it happen. If a rule has a mute for a punishment let it happen. But if a rule has no clear punishment and Staff Member A says it should be a temp ban while Staff Member B says it should be a perm ban, in most cases the person who's had staff the longest has the final say seeing how they have the experience under their belt.
Think of it as in school. If you are late to class too much you may have a teacher who asks for you to simply come in after school and make it up where another teacher would give you an office referral and you'd end up in Saturday School. Rules are there but people decide how they should be punished differently if broken. Hell seeing how FFHG has rules set in stone (text w/e) than those rules will have punishments that fit the crime.
Really I could care less about how you think it should be done, being an authority figure has a set of rules to follow and the punishments for those rules. How severe the punishment is is all up to the authority figure. If you have a problem with it, suck it up. Really nothing you can do. If the authority figure decides to take your advice and be a little nicer thats his choice. If he doesn't too bad.
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Post by Kija on Nov 25, 2008 16:37:43 GMT -6
The main point that I agree with you on is having a better time frame for bans. While time frames are set in most cases, the current system does not allow that time frame to be applied in a simple or automatic manner. A part of this is because many bans are not even set to be lifted until after they make a forum post. The ban system could be better in these regards. It will be eventually, but everything takes time, and there is so much to do. However, I disagree that extreme rules, such as pornography should be more lenient just because of the time of day and the people on. In order to make sure the rules are followed and that people understand that such rules are important to the foundation of the game and its community, there must not be exceptions. The more that administrators let it slide, the more people would think it is okay. It is not okay.
In many decisions, even Brotherhood members will disagree with eachother. However, this is a natural thing. It is rare for everyone to agree exactly on everything. I do agree that such disagreements should be left out of public view. A past forum post when something was brought to public viewing had made me quite annoyed.
Although I am not always here, I believe my judgements and the way I moderate when I am here is the ideal way to do so. Unfortunately, I cannot always be here. I have a job that requires me to spend the majority of the day gone. I cannot help that. Other Brotherhood members have the same problem. However, many people do not even try. At times, I would be speaking on world say, and then out of nowhere, Rand comes on to deal with a problem that had on say, because someone decided to message Rand to deal with it, even though I was right there, online, speaking on world say.
If people would be more willing to realize that Rand is not the end all problem fixer, that other people are there too, things could be simplier. If someone have a problem, it is far easier to contact the person already online. I do not get what people have against me that they must avoid me just about every time.
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Post by Rand on Nov 25, 2008 17:26:23 GMT -6
I'll go out on a limb here, cap'n, and say that people... 1) Dont think to associate Hersil with Kija, or. 2) They think you'll be more lenient or unwilling to deal with something than I would. Try it, guys, he's dealt with people too you know.
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Post by Firemaster on Nov 29, 2008 21:44:18 GMT -6
No offense Kija, but people dont say things to you because they think your too nice. They think that the people they are ratting out are just going to use that advantage to get away with everything. They think your too soft, think you have no backbone. They also think that when they do ask you for help, you'll be afk and wont be able to see it. Some people probably think your not afk, they probably think your here just ignoring everyone.
KIJA R A MONSTAA NDD ATE J00R FCE!!!
Edit: KIJA SMASH!! KIJA ANGRYY!!! KIJA GO RAWR!!!!!
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Post by Kija on Nov 29, 2008 22:27:39 GMT -6
I have not let a single person who I have seen break a rule just get away with it. I do not simply ban every person over minor issues but neither does any of the others; however, I do my job the way that I believe it should be done, and I am good at it. I am nice, even to those that I am banning. It is a part of who I am. But when I am around, people will still follow the rules, and if do not they will face the conquences. Being nice and making sure the rules are enforced to the fullest extent they should be enforced do not have to conflict with eachother. For those that do not believe that, I can give the names of all the people that I have banned over my time, and you can ask them.
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Post by Rand on Nov 30, 2008 0:42:45 GMT -6
I honestly wish I wasn't just a bloody ban-evader detective. Either the rest of y'all have just not made the4 connection on people's various forms of identical info, or my memory is just that awesome. I gave Connie some fun on someone here in the forums I found ban-evading just earlier this evening who I decided to check out (and yes, they're in-game too, or were on the V7 server. Message me if you're curious, Kija, and I'll gladly fill you in too.)
But hey, I told ya so. People think you're too nice. See, that's why I let 'em know right from the start that I'm peachy with everyone till they act like assholes. Treat with others as they treat unto you is how I likes to do. And really. You probably helped me catch some people just by being online before, Kija, and them not realizing I was on too, thus thinking if it were only you that you'd be away and they could get away with shit. I know for a fact that was the case on at least two occasions.
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Post by lordphoenix on Nov 30, 2008 0:45:58 GMT -6
Firemaster almost hit on what I would say is the main reason people do not approach kija. Those of us who have been around long enough know that he looks in on the game quite frequently, but just simply does not talk unless a subject of discussion particularly strikes his fancy, or someone is quite insistent on seeking his input/responses. To most, however, Kija seems like the guy that is near constantly afk, and when he isn't, he's just sitting around ignoring everyone, so why bother trying to get his help with anything?
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FenrirXIII
Hunter
[glow=red,7,150]The Original Gumdrop[/glow]
Posts: 98
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Post by FenrirXIII on Nov 30, 2008 0:50:53 GMT -6
Damn youngin' whippernsappers. Back in my day, we threw all them trouble makers in tha can with bubba and all them clones. It was more hardcore than the intarwebz can ever express~ fang-fiddly time limits and automatic unbans, nonsense I says. A good 48 hours with bubba was just about enough for anyone! For everything else, there's mastercard. I mean ban.
+ On the more serious side though, everyone brings their own ideals into moderation, it happens with power. The key to keeping it under control is a rules system for the moderators to abide by, and as long as they do that there's no room for misinterpretation. THG is at a point where there are multiple active BH members who check the game. When I was hosting and had robes for it, there weren't many BH who ever came online, or moderated anything. If there were any rules, I didn't enforce any except treat people nice, watch the language in wSay because we do have younger kids playing, stuff like that. It sure as heck wasn't even judgement day to day though. More like case by case. To each his own? o.o
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Post by Divusmors on Nov 30, 2008 2:31:22 GMT -6
48 hours? Didn't some poor schmuck get left in there for over 270 days?
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Post by Rand on Nov 30, 2008 14:22:48 GMT -6
I dont think they ever logged back onto that character to get it out.
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Post by Jumin on Nov 30, 2008 23:05:38 GMT -6
I rely on Kija when he's the only BH online. I tell the people that even though he might be AFK, i know that kija always reviews the logs. Which is evident when he responds to a trouble maker 30 minutes later.
He's like the Steam VAC system ban. He won't catch you in the act but he WILL catch up to you and remind you to follow the rules.
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Post by Divusmors on Dec 1, 2008 1:39:12 GMT -6
Naw, it took him over a year to actually log on with an admin signed on and not afk. He'd only stay on for a minute maybe, then wait a week or so. Over a year later, he decides to try the forums, and got told he has to be on to be release. xD
This is why it's important to stay on and wait until the punishment is over, folks.
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Post by Sur Realis on Dec 1, 2008 6:38:15 GMT -6
Though it brings up a point that happened to me not too long ago. Rand Jailed me, and my sister needed to talk to my dad and had me disconnect. When I got back on, Rand and Mahn were gone and I had to wait even longer, though I only stayed on the Jailed character and did nothing else. I've had characters jailed for weeks because there was no one on to unjail them when I so remembered they existed. Though I like the whole concept of Jail much better than Mute, it is still a bit annoying and has its flaws.
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Post by Rand on Dec 1, 2008 18:38:20 GMT -6
That's kind of like saying that a server that needs an active administrator around to be rebooted has flaws, Shane, if you think about it.
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Post by Sur Realis on Dec 1, 2008 22:16:56 GMT -6
That's kind of like saying that a server that needs an active administrator around to be rebooted has flaws, Shane, if you think about it. I did think about it. And, in a way, it does, but the flaws there are much more bearable than flaws otherwise. I stand by my point that nothing is perfect.
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Post by Thornreaper on Dec 2, 2008 16:40:48 GMT -6
I stand by the Brotherhood. If I see any of them make a judgment call that I feel is not fair or just, I'll bring it to that BH personally. What a lot of players fail to realize is that this isn't a democracy. Your opinion on BH behavior in the end doesn't really matter. We didn't vote for our administration. We choose to play the game they made. They can administrate how they want. I think they all do an incredible job of attempting to keep fairness. They don't abuse their power, and are friendly with anyone who is friendly with them. In terms of maturity they are years beyond any administration team I've seen on any other game. Does this lack of "Democracy" mean we should shut up and say nothing? I don't think so. I think it's alright to bring your problems with administration to that administration. It's not your "Right" to have them hear you out, but it's their choice to let you call them out.
I know this all sounds very totalitarian, but I think we can all agree that we have better admins than any other game on BYOND, and I am content with that. I'm not looking to change any of them honestly, but I don't mind bringing my opinions to them and either have them except or turn down complaints and calls to action.
Porn is Porn and has no place on FF:THG. Spam is Spam and has no place on FF:THG. 24/7. Doesn't matter.
Just because I'm 18 doesn't mean I want porn links posted in wsay because I happen to be on late.
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Soren
Hunter
To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Dec 2, 2008 17:28:32 GMT -6
Was all of this really, truly necessary? Are things that go on in the server really that bad that you have to go to the forums and write out a novel about it? Usually when I'm around nothing happens. At all. I honestly thought that the vast majority of our playerbase knew right from wrong.
I mean, honestly..? The most broken rule ever is filter evasion. And more often than not, when a player evades the filter, 3 or 4 non-administrators tell them to stop bypassing like they actually could do something about it. Often, it actually works, I assume because whoever didn't know about the filter rule also doesn't know who is or isn't part of the staff.
And as far as IMs go, the only ones I personally ever get are about rebooting the server. Which I of course do, unless I'm not at the computer to see the IM. I can't recall getting any complaints or reports outside of server reboots. At least, not ones that really, really needed handling.
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Post by Sur Realis on Dec 2, 2008 18:23:36 GMT -6
Hah. That's a lie Soren. Just a while ago I reported someone sexually harassing Sarah, along with other people, to you. Kija handled it, but that is besides the point. Something besides crashes was totally reported to you.
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Post by Rand on Dec 2, 2008 18:49:51 GMT -6
In all fairness, Soren, a lot of the bullshit you think this is unnecessarily pointing towards is because you either never saw anything about it or werent around to do anything about it. If you'll look through the ban list sometime and the things I've banned people for, you'd know it's a different story than what you're thinking. And if most of the playerbase were intelligent AND caring enough to both know the rules and follow them by and large, I'd not have an *average* of 3 people needing to be dealt with i some sort of fashion a week. And no, I'm not calling you all stupid, slavering barbarians, I think you know what i mean.
Point in turn, Soren: Just the other day I found out one of our somewhat newer regulars is a ban evader from back in the 1st quarter of the year, whom I turned over to the gentle mercies of Stine. I'd say evaders and double-whammy ban addicts are kinda high too.
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Soren
Hunter
To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Dec 4, 2008 12:56:31 GMT -6
Hah. That's a lie Soren. Just a while ago I reported someone sexually harassing Sarah, along with other people, to you. Kija handled it, but that is besides the point. Something besides crashes was totally reported to you. Okay, things do get reported to me every now and then. But most of the time they are either extremely trivial, or just reporting for the sake of reporting. If I don't think it's really anything to bother with, then I probably won't bother with it unless I see something to show me that it's serious enough. I had someone (Milenko I believe?) report some "spamming/flaming/whatever" that was going on in the server while I was just about to have to leave my computer. Knowing it might have been something a little more on the serious side, I asked Kain to check in on things since I had to go and couldn't be sitting around yelling at people and perhaps throwing out bans and jailings for the next half hour. Most of the things I get are things like, "such-and-such has a name that might not even be against the rules, do something about it! " Honestly, when it comes to changing someone's name (unless it's extremely obvious that they need to have a name swap,) I'm not going to touch it. I've seen people around with some pretty screwed up names before that I don't think much was done about. When it comes to who does and who doesn't have a name that's worthy of a name-change, I don't feel I'm the right one to make that decision, and typically it's something I'd rather avoid. Oh and I think I somewhat recall that IM. I saw it when it was too late.
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Post by Joker The Royale on Dec 5, 2008 9:28:15 GMT -6
Oh yea, I remember that person, when Kija changed the name that person gave him bullshit about it, but Soren the name was really inappropriate it was something like "HORNY SLUT GIRL" or "CUM GUZZLER" it was me who told you to change the name and the only reason I did that was because that name was not appropriate for a family based game.
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Post by kyoshi123 on Dec 5, 2008 12:40:31 GMT -6
This game is Family based? When was this Other then the Brotherhood part
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