Theif Damage

[Bolt]

Well, Its either me, or something is wierd with theif abilities. Pressure Attack says it adds +50% damage but when I use it, it does normal damage if i were to normal attack. Backstab does the same thing. The results are all under Boost3 and on the same monster type.
Bolt --- Backstab
* Bolt >> Fire Dragon(12) --- 14 HITS -- 1,646 DMG (CRITICAL)
Bolt --- Pressure Attack
* Bolt >> Fire Dragon(8) --- 12 HITS -- 1,678 DMG
Regular Attack:
* Bolt >> Fire Dragon(7) --- 14 HITS -- 1,268 DMG
Can anyone else see a wierd thing here? Let me know what ya think on this, cause its confuseing me alot -_-

[Takahashi]

bolt said:

Bolt --- Backstab
* Bolt >> Fire Dragon(12) --- 14 HITS -- 1,646 DMG (CRITICAL)
Bolt --- Pressure Attack
* Bolt >> Fire Dragon(8) --- 12 HITS -- 1,678 DMG
Regular Attack:
* Bolt >> Fire Dragon(7) --- 14 HITS -- 1,268 DMG

Pressure Attack seems fine; note that you're doing about 132% the damage of the normal attack you listed, despite the PA doing 12 hits compared to the 14 hits your normal attack did. Those two missing hits would have brought the damage close to 150%.

Backstab looks a little strange, but it's also within the expected range. I can see where the confusion sets in; the code on these two abilities are a little muddy, and the results can be just as unclear.

[Thornreaper]

Bullshit = Bloody Murder.

It is ridiculous to think that a Knight would hit with Divide more often then a Theif with BM, plus we can't jsut fast3 ourselves to hit all the time. You would think theifs to be the assassins of the night and what not, and deliver one-hit kills better then a fat sluggish Knight. That pisses me off :\

[just2slick4u]

Thorn, I have already fought over and over about Bloody Murder vs Divide and Rub, it wont happen most liekly, but good looking out, talk to Reap about it on AIM though, he'll break it down for you bro...

[Rapta111]

Well, aren't Knights basically the Blackmages of the Melee classes?

[Hiroshima]

Yes.

[Takahashi]

thornreaper said:

Bullshit = Bloody Murder.

It is ridiculous to think that a Knight would hit with Divide more often then a Theif with BM, plus we can't jsut fast3 ourselves to hit all the time. You would think theifs to be the assassins of the night and what not, and deliver one-hit kills better then a fat sluggish Knight. That pisses me off :\

The problem with BM originally was that it hit too much. You're looking at an ability that would kill something based on whether or not it hits at all on a class that has the highest dexterity (accuracy) growth in the game. The old BM gave Thieves accuracy comparable to a Knight with Fast 3 nowadays.

Now, compared to a class whose instant death skill is strictly percentage-based (Black Mage) and one whose success is also based on accuracy on a class with inferior dexterity growth (Knight), you can see where problems arise, where a Thief without buffs could reliably kill everything aside from bosses.

On top of that, BM effectively costs 4 MP by the time you learn it (1 MP for Hide, 3 for BM), last I knew. Divide costs 5. Thiefs max out at 15 MP, so you're looking at enough MP for four BMs and almost enough for five. Knights max out at 13 or so, meaning you get two Divides before you have to defend.

Simply put, BM used to be far too strong. Now, it's about as strong as Rub (which is not a bad thing by any means). Divide is probably too strong now, and I wouldn't mind seeing it brought to BM/Rub-class success rates while also having its MP cost reduced by a point or two.

[U. Dye]

takahashi said:

Now, compared to a class whose instant death skill is strictly percentage-based (Black Mage) and one whose success is also based on accuracy on a class with inferior dexterity growth (Knight), you can see where problems arise, where a Thief without buffs could reliably kill everything aside from bosses.

Unless Thieves get 4 Dex at levelup, Knights don't have inferior Dex growth; they gain 3 Dex at levelup. I think the main difference here is, Thieves have much lighter weapons, which is why they can attack more accurately.

takahashi said:

On top of that, BM effectively costs 4 MP by the time you learn it (1 MP for Hide, 3 for BM), last I knew. Divide costs 5. Thiefs max out at 15 MP, so you're looking at enough MP for four BMs and almost enough for five. Knights max out at 13 or so, meaning you get two Divides before you have to defend.

First off, yes, it's 13 MP. Second off... THANK GOD. Someone else says it! Someone else notes that Knights only get 2 Divides! I thought I was the last of my kind! *kidnaps Taka and takes him to a secret city at the core of the earth to help me and the many chicks repopulate our species*

takahashi said:

Simply put, BM used to be far too strong. Now, it's about as strong as Rub (which is not a bad thing by any means). Divide is probably too strong now, and I wouldn't mind seeing it brought to BM/Rub-class success rates while also having its MP cost reduced by a point or two.

While I too wouldn't mind seeing Divide have a point knocked off its MP cost, I would like to point out one thing. Divide gains its insane power from combining the Knight's skill with a WM skill. Take away the WM, and most Knights are left with a pretty crappy Divide, since a lot of them go pure Str, or at least, not very much Dex(which is why their MP would probably be better spent using Frenzy or Retort). Of course, a lot of Knights use WMs as alts, true, but not all of them. So it's not a universal THING that all the Knights do. It's just a tactic employed by those who had the right tools for the job, or a friend with the right tools.


[EDIT] (Almost sent a typo in, I typed EFIT by accident. XD)

How exactly did this turn from a comparison of the damage of 3 Thief techs to [EDIT]ANOTHER[/EDIT] interclass comparison of instant-kill techs?

[Jumin]

i just want to throw out that even with Rub being percentage based....
i was told that since omnsters have some magic resistance, that percentage of killing actually lower...
... damn ES : lol

[Takahashi]

Unless Thieves get 4 Dex at levelup, Knights don't have inferior Dex growth; they gain 3 Dex at levelup. I think the main difference here is, Thieves have much lighter weapons, which is why they can attack more accurately.

Yes, thieves do get four dex per level. It makes them unique; no other class naturally gets four to a stat. So that combined with daggers being lightweight led to Thieves with sky high accuracy.

Thieves were turning out to be better killers than every other melee class in the game, and they didn't have to wipe out their MP to get to that point. Spend one turn hiding, and then every big monster in the game (and a good deal of the small ones) were already dead; it just came down to when the Thief decided to make it official.

Sure, three or four rounds later you were out of MP, but you were also three or four monsters closer to victory.

First off, yes, it's 13 MP. Second off... THANK GOD. Someone else says it! Someone else notes that Knights only get 2 Divides! I thought I was the last of my kind! *kidnaps Taka and takes him to a secret city at the core of the earth to help me and the many chicks repopulate our species*

...yes, well. I'll get back to you on that offer.

While I too wouldn't mind seeing Divide have a point knocked off its MP cost, I would like to point out one thing. Divide gains its insane power from combining the Knight's skill with a WM skill. Take away the WM, and most Knights are left with a pretty crappy Divide, since a lot of them go pure Str, or at least, not very much Dex(which is why their MP would probably be better spent using Frenzy or Retort). Of course, a lot of Knights use WMs as alts, true, but not all of them. So it's not a universal THING that all the Knights do. It's just a tactic employed by those who had the right tools for the job, or a friend with the right tools.

Granted, which is why I also brought up giving Divide a set percentage for its success rate. That way, the build of the Knight wouldn't matter, nor would having a certain supporting cast matter. Having a WM around for Fast 3 would still be of use with other Knight skills, but you wouldn't have to focus on dexterity (or have the WM) in order to have Divide hit worth squat. Wonders of the world like dust devils and air elementals would be Divide food.

So, ideally, I'd like to see Divide and Bloody Murder as mirror images: Identical MP cost and identical 80%/40% success rate. Now, whether that means Divide is brought down to 3 MP, or Divide is brought down to 4 and BM is increased to 4, is up in the air.

How exactly did this turn from a comparison of the damage of 3 Thief techs to an interclass comparison of instant-kill techs?

Very carefully, I'd wager.

[Sandlight]

Divide still works most of the time, even if you are a pure strength knight. The most I missed in a row with Divide would probably be 3. There isn't much difference between a pure dex knight and a pure str knight when using Divide. It still hits more than it will miss.

[just2slick4u]

No way in hell am i going to settle for divide being as bullshit as bloody murder, dude, divide is fine, i dont mind the insane MP cost, because if you lower divide, you have to lower every other move, even if divide was 4 MP, frenzy becomes inferior because that is 4 MP, so alright, lower frenzy, to 3 MP, o wait, now render and frenzy are the same, frenzy is still useless since now you can half a monster's dmg for 3 MP instead of the crappy ass dmg it already gives, Divide is so "strong" as you all call it because it is the FINAL MOVE learned by knights, I enjoy the fact that it is a part of your own dex...without divide, dragoons pretty much replace knights, with the exception of area skills, but we have plenty of mages who beat the knights to the punch, other than divide, i hardly find a use for my knight, since powerlevelling has recently been outlawed...but that is just me, I am sure the rest of you Tote knights are "so much better"

[Erb]

everythings fine the way it is ;D
Bolt lets just look forward to the next thief skill,,
hey new skills r coming out with V8 right? if so how exactly will that work?
theres probably a thread about that but i dont wanna look

[U. Dye]

just2slick4u said:

No way in hell am i going to settle for divide being as bullshit as bloody murder, dude, divide is fine, i dont mind the insane MP cost, because if you lower divide, you have to lower every other move, even if divide was 4 MP, frenzy becomes inferior because that is 4 MP, so alright, lower frenzy, to 3 MP, o wait, now render and frenzy are the same, frenzy is still useless since now you can half a monster's dmg for 3 MP instead of the crappy ass dmg it already gives, Divide is so "strong" as you all call it because it is the FINAL MOVE learned by knights, I enjoy the fact that it is a part of your own dex...without divide, dragoons pretty much replace knights, with the exception of area skills, but we have plenty of mages who beat the knights to the punch, other than divide, i hardly find a use for my knight, since powerlevelling has recently been outlawed...but that is just me, I am sure the rest of you Tote knights are "so much better"

While I disagree with Slick's lack of sufficient punctuation, I have to say that the message he's trying to get across, I do agree with, and I really can't argue against it. Not that I would if I could, mind you.

[Kain]

Divide = too accurate even without Fast 3/10

Any instant kill that a class is willing to blow virtually all of their MP using is obviously too accurate. The enemies in PoP2 (maybe even some PoP1 enemies) should be immune to any instant kills, as they're pretty cheap.

Divide definitely doesn't need an MP decrease, as in its current form, it's far and away the most accurate of the insta-kills. A decrease in accuracy would make such a thing less ridiculous (which is what you said--I don't even know why the first part of this paragraph is even there), but as I said before, insta-kills are pretty cheap and I don't think spamming them should be encouraged. Even stuff like Demi is pretty cheap. -_-

[U. Dye]

kain said:

Any instant kill that a class is willing to blow virtually all of their MP using is obviously too accurate.

As opposed to blowing the same amount of MP removing half of a target's HP and then using a souped-up version of their normal attack, and the damn thing STILL survives?

kain said:

The enemies in PoP2 (maybe even some PoP1 enemies) should be immune to any instant kills, as they're pretty cheap.

And being immune to damage for as long as you have MP is not cheap?

kain said:

Divide definitely doesn't need an MP decrease, as in its current form, it's far and away the most accurate of the insta-kills.

Someone's gonna have the most accurate insta-kill some way or the other, so why not Knights? At least, unless all the instant kills are the exact same, at which point it would just be pointless. Why not give Black Mages Bloody Murder, since it's the same thing as Rub, and they can use knives? Why not give Divide to Thieves, since it's the same thing as BM, and they use blades to attack with?

kain said:

A decrease in accuracy would make such a thing less ridiculous (which is what you said--I don't even know why the first part of this paragraph is even there), but as I said before, insta-kills are pretty cheap and I don't think spamming them should be encouraged.

Immunity to damage is pretty cheap and shouldn't be encouraged, IMO. So hey, why not nix Free Flying? Or make it so Goons hurt themselves upon landing?

kain said:

Even stuff like Demi is pretty cheap. -_-

...I'm not even gonna dignify that with a response...



Now, I gotta say this, otherwise I'm gonna explode, and not in a good way... Thanks to Thorn, a discussion of Thieves got turned into another inter-class comparison of instant-kill techniques, and thanks to ME, Dragoons are now being dragged into it. This isn't something I'm gonna say often, but I think it's getting about time for this thread to just DIE.

[Kain]

gamer201 said:

As opposed to blowing the same amount of MP removing half of a target's HP and then using a souped-up version of their normal attack, and the damn thing STILL survives?

I didn't say other attacks were any better, but at least other attacks make you do actual damage instead of "hay u instuntly die no mater wut ur hp is lolz".

And being immune to damage for as long as you have MP is not cheap?

...And not being able to hit anything until the very end of the round, which by then, all of the things actually worth using a Jump attack on are dead, thanks to Divide-spamming Knights, which in turn causes the Dragoon to redirect to some minor enemy whom he could've killed two-to-three times over with that one attack. Let's not forget the chance of getting a weak hit and essentially wasting your turn!

Someone's gonna have the most accurate insta-kill some way or the other, so why not Knights? At least, unless all the instant kills are the exact same, at which point it would just be pointless. Why not give Black Mages Bloody Murder, since it's the same thing as Rub, and they can use knives? Why not give Divide to Thieves, since it's the same thing as BM, and they use blades to attack with?

Why not Knights, you say? Maybe because Knights are essentially tanks and should rely on their actual strength and their other non-Render/Divide abilities to defeat enemies? I personally don't see the point of giving BMs Rub, since they're quite possibly the most overpowered class in the game and have many other attacks that could do the same job without relying on a percentage, but for Thieves, it makes perfect sense--they're the assassins of the game and it's not like they're overflowing with physical strength and abilities.

Immunity to damage is pretty cheap and shouldn't be encouraged, IMO. So hey, why not nix Free Flying? Or make it so Goons hurt themselves upon landing?

Ah, the "I don't really have an argument for this, so I'll nitpick at your class" response. Already replied to this anyways. Jump is the Dragoons' premier ability and is the true balancing-out for their +2 Str and +2 Vit, so FF makes sense, and if Goons hurt themselves upon landing, no one would use that premier ability.

...I'm not even gonna dignify that with a response...

(i.e. I have no real response for this, so I'll reply with a veiled insult.) I don't see how instantly cutting an enemy's HP in half/by three quarters isn't cheap, especially with what, a 90% base success, barring resistances/immunities? I mean, haven't you ever wondered why instant kills and percentage-based HP damage attacks rarely work in commercial games (at least, when you're the one using them)? It's because they're cheap and the developers know it.

Now to wait for Mahn to come in and say "STOP FLAMING KAIN OMG" (even though there was no flaming going on) and increase my (totally unjustified) warning and close the thread, because he oh-so-loves having the last word, even if the only reason he gets it is because he doesn't let other people get the chance. Heil!

[Mahn]

kain said:

(i.e. I have no real response for this, so I'll reply with a veiled insult.) I don't see how instantly cutting an enemy's HP in half/by three quarters isn't cheap, especially with what, a 90% base success, barring resistances/immunities? I mean, haven't you ever wondered why instant kills and percentage-based HP damage attacks rarely work in commercial games (at least, when you're the one using them)? It's because they're cheap and the developers know it.

Now to wait for Mahn to come in and say "STOP FLAMING KAIN OMG" (even though there was no flaming going on) and increase my (totally unjustified) warning and close the thread, because he oh-so-loves having the last word, even if the only reason he gets it is because he doesn't let other people get the chance. Heil!

5. Don't flame/disrespect other members.

You even said "(i.e. I have no real response for this, so I'll reply with a veiled insult.)". Even filed down insults count as disrespect. Either way, I believe something IS being done about Knights and Thieves for Version 8 in terms of damage/skills. Let alone, Version 8 will significantly provide alot of changes to problems that were overlooked when Dagolar did his "balancing". I honestly don't have much to say on this topic because people will always have their own opinions. So, continue on with this argument over ideas if ya'll want to. I won't put my foot down just yet...I'll let Hiro come in and have some fun.

[talon]

Wooo, the blame's off the bh! Nerfs away! ;D

[just2slick4u]

Back to the topic...Bloody Murder isnt all that bad, the reason Knights have such a high divide percentage, I think, is for a certain set of moves thieves posess. First off, thieves have Pressure Attack, for those who don't know what the hell that is, Pressure Attack(PA) is a move that deals an additional 50% damage, and puts the enemy to sleep(unless resisted) Now, most people are smart enough NOT to solo their thief, so once I have a target, I PA it(hopefully it sleeps) then continue to use Bloody Murder, though I normally get it on the first two tries, if that fails, backstab away, or my alt(whoever it is) assists in the kill, Knights, have a whole arsenal of moves, why they get divide, i do not quite understand, but it is in there, and I like it, now for Kain's remark about crushing monsters worth "divide happy knights" Well, simply crush the remains, usually if theres two or three dragons left over I ask Dye, "frenzy it do death?" and most times we do, yeah it is good to watch the numbers add up, laugh it off, even roleplay with it, but why waste 4 MP on taking away 1/4 of a target's HP, when I can take the whole thing out with 5, it is just, common sense...

[Kain]

admin said:

5. Don't flame/disrespect other members.

You even said "(i.e. I have no real response for this, so I'll reply with a veiled insult.)". Even filed down insults count as disrespect. Either way, I believe something IS being done about Knights and Thieves for Version 8 in terms of damage/skills. Let alone, Version 8 will significantly provide alot of changes to problems that were overlooked when Dagolar did his "balancing". I honestly don't have much to say on this topic because people will always have their own opinions. So, continue on with this argument over ideas if ya'll want to. I won't put my foot down just yet...I'll let Hiro come in and have some fun.

lololol

The part you bolded was my interpretation of what Dye's comment was saying (the "Not even gonna dignify this with a response," or whatever), not me saying that I was going to reply with a veiled insult. I understand you can't do better than that, though; I know holding the source code hostage so you can keep your pretty little position must be tiresome.

[just2slick4u]

Kain: 2
Mahn: 0

[Thornreaper]

God. I didn't even look back at this post. all of you people who say BM should be crappier then Divide, I could pick you apart one by one. OF course not physically, Mahn wouldn't allow that. He'd just ban me and release the source code.

[U. Dye]

Maybe he'd ban everyone he could in one sitting then release the source code. God knows, I'll bet he's dreamt of it.