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Post by Takahashi on Apr 11, 2008 16:14:45 GMT -6
You have a point there, I keep limiting my view to Dragoon vs. Thief. However, even if Knights get blasted by magic, at least the hits that land on them aren't horrible - Dark Paladin Cecil, for example, once took 5 Damage from a Thunder Dragon with Barrier 3, whereas my Thief will take 60-100ish. Without Barrier 3, a Critical will basically end the battle for me, and god knows the more the enemy misses the more the enemy successfully criticals. I believe they do like 300 to my Thief and rarely miss - don't miss enough to make up for their whimsical HP and Vit, which is why I think their Agi should be upped somewhat. Red Mages have Cure going with them, plus a number of buffs to decrease damage they take. Rangers, in their Wereform, become practically invincible with a fair build and someone to toss them an occasional Cure - easily half of the people at TotE. Blue Mages are quick enough to get a good Barrier 3 off to keep them alive then can cast Cure if needed. A Dragoon that stays grounded is suicidal and a waste of space - most Dragoons don't have the sense to stay down and wait for Boost, even. What I'm trying to say is that, even if all classes are likely to get bumfucked all the same, a Thief is at the minority for the extreme lack of useful skills for fighting, and especially at the beginning of battles. Well, Thieves are intended to be somewhat frail. Not nearly as frail as they end up being as of now... but they should ideally be around the lower-middle section of the Totem Pole of Durability instead of being parked in last place. Some changes to other classes and skills/spells will fix part of that (goodbye to Barrier granting physical reduction AND magic reduction, Jump's aforementioned renovations, etc), but Thieves will be getting some help of their own as well. Were it up to me, I'd rather have Thieves getting 2.5 vit instead of 3.5 agi (or seeing more Thieves who are willing to invest points into vitality). Until whatever changes are made to Thieves though, not much I can offer aside from the hope that both luck and your teammates are kind to you.
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Post by Rand on Apr 11, 2008 17:46:18 GMT -6
Wisdom, your posts are a pain in the ASS to read. 1. Knights and Fighters are stayin' just as they are in terms of what they do. 2. I like and have always liked the skills that require a turn to utilize becoming an auto-attack. 3. Hide staying permanent isn't a bad notion, though with that we may have to get rid of the MP cost reduction on it. Fair's fair, you know. 4. Dragoons can and will become targets in the air. Simple fact of life. All they need are some ground-based attacks and they'll be good to go, I think. Thieves will get improved upon too, so never fear. And do all of yall forget about advanced classes? Your Thief may very well not be a Thief by the time you're talking about.
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Post by Jumin on Apr 11, 2008 18:15:25 GMT -6
if goons get hit in the air, how often will it be? will lure be taken out, or will lure only work like 50% of the time? actually.. i like the idea of lure working like that for the goon's upcoming nerf..
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Post by Sur Realis on Apr 11, 2008 21:10:45 GMT -6
Wisdom, your posts are a pain in the ASS to read. 1. Knights and Fighters are stayin' just as they are in terms of what they do. 2. I like and have always liked the skills that require a turn to utilize becoming an auto-attack. 3. Hide staying permanent isn't a bad notion, though with that we may have to get rid of the MP cost reduction on it. Fair's fair, you know. 4. Dragoons can and will become targets in the air. Simple fact of life. All they need are some ground-based attacks and they'll be good to go, I think. Thieves will get improved upon too, so never fear. And do all of yall forget about advanced classes? Your Thief may very well not be a Thief by the time you're talking about. But Naaaate~, if my Thief is no longer a Thief how can she be Thief Empress? A Thief Empress that isn't a Thief is just not a Thief Empress, you know. My Thief Empress must be a Thief to be a Thief Empress, or a subdivision of an advanced Thief, such as a Ninja, Assassin, or a bad-ass Ninjassin.
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Post by Sur Realis on Apr 11, 2008 21:47:53 GMT -6
In reply to the posts on this page of the New Skills thread: talk concerning underleveled people getting to Mona. Now, as a reply to what Nate said, to stop dragging people, it is inevitable for that - there will always be someone to carry them from Hassen to Mona, and there is nothing to change that unless they just can't get to Hassen in the first place. A few things have come up concerning limiting people from moving on; the better of the ideas would to have people actually know what the hell they are doing in the game, and to actually listen to the storyline - my friend Dakoda got to Mona, without even really be dragged anywhere, and pulling his own weight - and didn't know who Voleron was. Kind of pitiful for a game which has more storyline than all the BYOND games combined. On another note, we could be blunt and just deny them the ability to move on to the next Hunting Ground just because they've beaten the boss, and instead the Kings could, with the welfare of the Investigator in mind, deny their right to move on until they get stronger. In all reality, it is very likely for a King to disallow a Level 6 to move on to DM just because they beat Vallatio, and instead a character must fulfill two requirements - beat Vallatio and be at least Level 10. The problem with this is that it gets very annoying and seems to be overly restricting. Personally, I think the best idea would be to create a little incentive to make them stay in their current Hunting Grounds rather than move on - adding tidbits of story related stuff is not enough because a large majority of players don't even care for storyline, let alone the rules set in place to keep the server family friendly. However, if it was set-up so that training at the next Hunting Grounds is actually worse than training at the past one, they might actually want to stay. For example, an idea would be that the larger the gap in levels the less EXP the lower levels get. This way, power-training would be a hassle for the lack of actual gain, and would encourage people training with those of their own levels. Finally, and I think this is the best way, but the more characters in the battle the more troublesome the boss is; not just more enemies wailing on you, I mean the more troublesome the BOSS is. Not make it too hard that it becomes impossible, but not so easy that low levels can be dragged through it just because [person] can handle an extra Deinonychus. After all, the minions are wimpy minions, like they should be. Adding one more wimpy minion will not make up for an extra character, and thus you are left with an imbalance that leads to the ability of larger parties to pwn the boss more easily than smaller parties - if a character can solo the boss, it's very unlikely, save for maybe -Vallatio-, that they can't drag two or three other characters and completely fail at the boss because of. Hell, all you need is a Knight Level 16 and a Mage with cure, and Vallatio becomes nothing. After all, 6 Mages beat Kaug at Level 14 all the way through. That's 6 levels below suggested - CPs actually have a rule that you must be Level x0 to move on to the next Hunting Grounds, depending on what HG you are at. Large parties of Lv. 23s are greater than Grygasz, and because of this, it is more likely to see people that can't handle Mona AT Mona because once you beat the boss there is nothing to do in that Hunting Ground.
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Kumog
Hunter
[glow=orange,5,150]Master Soloist[/glow]
Kupo!
Posts: 75
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Post by Kumog on Apr 11, 2008 22:28:22 GMT -6
I can agree with this idea, it's annoying as hell seeing level 25 s come to Mona, beg their way into a good party, and manage to drag it down to slowness because of how they die in every single battle unless they get Bar 3 immediately.
It also annoys me of how so many people refuse to acknowledge the storyline of the game, in which investigating is one of the things we're supposed to do, not mindlessly kill bosses.
Ergo, my idea is this. In order to advance along to new hunting grounds, you must answer questions from each ruling family before they grant permission.
For instance, Dainan King would ask who Nexus is, and what your purpose is as an investigator.
Lirean Council would ask about the grave in Ranook Graveyard.
Anara would ask about some of the history of the world, such as who one of Ruoze's great heros was.
For Enlightenment, you'd recieve a test from Nexus prior to obtaining all that power, pretty much a review of the prior things. If you fail to figure it out (within a certain percentage of correct answers, say 80% correct), Nexus would refuse to grant you enlightenment, and until you figure out the plot (via a library in TotE), you would be muted on IP, and unable to ask for assistance ingame until you got the plot down.
I know this sounds a bit harsh, but I honestly think this would help lower the amount of "who the hell is voleron" type idiocy as of late.
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Post by Sur Realis on Apr 11, 2008 22:38:56 GMT -6
It's this new generation of gamers. I was grown up on bastard games that decided to piss you off until you slammed the controller down in a fit and turned the game off or played for 14 hours and figure out how to get to the next area. Now all the games do is spoil you and you watch the game play - Final Fantasy 12, in specific. Comparitively, the people that grey up on games such as Super Mario Bros. 3, Final Fantasy I, and other bastard RPG and platformers tend to give more a shit about gameplay and storyline than those that grew up on 3D games - which lose a hell of a lot of difficulty is transition no matter what.
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Post by Vahu on Apr 12, 2008 7:53:31 GMT -6
Finally, and I think this is the best way, but the more characters in the battle the more troublesome the boss is; not just more enemies wailing on you, I mean the more troublesome the BOSS is. Not make it too hard that it becomes impossible, but not so easy that low levels can be dragged through it just because [person] can handle an extra Deinonychus. After all, the minions are wimpy minions, like they should be. Adding one more wimpy minion will not make up for an extra character, and thus you are left with an imbalance that leads to the ability of larger parties to pwn the boss more easily than smaller parties - if a character can solo the boss, it's very unlikely, save for maybe -Vallatio-, that they can't drag two or three other characters and completely fail at the boss because of. Hell, all you need is a Knight Level 16 and a Mage with cure, and Vallatio becomes nothing. Maybe the boss's stats could fluctuate depending on how many people are in your party. That way, it will be challenging no matter how you face them. Set an average of stats and hp value and have them increase or decrease depending on party size.
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Post by Sur Realis on Apr 12, 2008 9:50:56 GMT -6
That is exactly what I was talking about, making the boss's stats fluctuate as per the amount of characters. After all, a 16 Knight will always be able to Retort and one-hit Vallatio if they land a critical - even more possible because the more characters there are the more buffs that can be applied. It's just global, for every boss. The more party members, the harder it is for them to win because they don't get the equivalent to match the extra party members - it has already been proven that a Red Mage at normal levels can basically -solo- at least the current v8 bosses, and likely Geyzer and Magora as they are now - the extra party members would be more of a help than a hindrance, so long as the players aren't acting stupid.
For example, on Kaug. Each party member = 1 extra Bridge Troll. Most Black Mages with Ice 2 will be able to kill them all in about 3 turns, if not less, and the limited space on Kaug's battle map leaves them open for area attacks - they just don't match the extra party member, and with Fast on the party members they rarely hit, so all the damage is left up to Kaug, who alone cannot counter the larger parties.
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Post by Kyou on Apr 12, 2008 10:13:16 GMT -6
I'd just rather that the bosses got stronger minions. But, if there were 5 or more people, maybe the bosses could get a slight boost.
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Post by Sur Realis on Apr 12, 2008 10:35:03 GMT -6
Either way, the bosses are too weak compared to large parties. We need fix nao.
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Post by Sur Realis on Apr 17, 2008 20:32:42 GMT -6
Modification for Meditate: Occurs as soon as they select it, similarly to retort, rather than whenever their turn comes. Useful so it cuts down on time end-battle where everyone meditates.
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Enni
Explorer
And the moon light shines like a luminous girl tonight
Posts: 45
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Post by Enni on Apr 17, 2008 21:44:30 GMT -6
Goo!'D Gawd!
That is the best idea I've ever heard! Meditating is my number one(or number two) biggest complaint. For how awful long it takes, but my idea has always been to make the animation shorter, I've had to wait through that "blinking circle" too many times for my liking. I like the idea very much Realis.
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Assailant
Hunter
All literary men are Red Sox fans. To be a Yankee fan in a literate society is to endanger your life
Posts: 119
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Post by Assailant on Apr 18, 2008 17:16:05 GMT -6
In reply to the posts on this page of the New Skills thread: talk concerning underleveled people getting to Mona. After all, 6 Mages beat Kaug at Level 14 all the way through. That's 6 levels below suggested 20 is the suggested level to beat Kaug? I've never done that. At most, I've gotten to 18 before killing Kaug, and that was but once, mostly because I'm not fond of DM. Anyways, I think most everything will fall into place, as Taka and Rand outlined earlier. I have only one complaint, however. Rangers are pretty much gods yet not gods later in the game. They become immune to rub and demi, two very annoying spells, making them gods. However, they are also immune to buffs, such as barrier. I propose that they lose this resistance yet retain it in the last transformation (hopefully not call of the grizzly by then, but who knows?), except they cannot be boosted (I mean really, a boosted wolf would destroy everything with hunt). However, with this last transformation, while immune to demi and rub, I think they should still be able to be slowed, and have the weakest forms of buff spells (meaning shield 2, barrier 2, etc.) This would give a final form a little more zest as they would get that godlike appearance back somewhat.
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Post by Takahashi on Apr 18, 2008 19:27:17 GMT -6
I like how wereforms work now. Immunity to debuffs and percentage damage skills/spells, but also immunity to all buffs. No resistance to magic damage past what Enlightenment gives, but also able to get the full effects of curative magic. This means that while Rangers may have a lot of bonus HP, they have no way of gaining improved defense... and a Ranger's natural defense isn't that impressive in the long run.
Basically, 250% normal HP (20-35 per level) loses part of its appeal when you're stuck taking 50-100% damage from almost everything no matter what you do... and I like that.
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Post by Rand on Apr 21, 2008 0:23:10 GMT -6
And the magical heal-all of transforming will more than like be cut in twain as well. I like Meditation as it is, personally. Don't see a need to make it insta. Or can you instantly clear your mind when you sit down and practice? No, it takes time.
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Post by Kyou on Apr 21, 2008 0:58:15 GMT -6
Actually, I like the idea, it can go well with an icon state for meditate instead of th basic circle spell flick, I think it would look better if it seemed the mage was meditating the whole round instead of the 1 step forward gain mp 1 step back two step.
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Kumog
Hunter
[glow=orange,5,150]Master Soloist[/glow]
Kupo!
Posts: 75
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Post by Kumog on Apr 21, 2008 1:30:50 GMT -6
The transform does not do a full heal actually, Nate.
It heals you for the exact amount of HP you gain from the transformation. For instance, Cougar gives Akira Toriyama 269 HP. It does not make his HP go to max, it merely gave him that much hp upon transformation in order to make the extra HP max even work.
Perhaps it should, at the end of the fight, instead of just lowering HP to your HP max (if over that), restore it at a % based system? EG you have 500 in wereform, 200 outside. You lose 50 HP and end the battle. You have 180 left.
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Post by lordphoenix on Apr 21, 2008 5:00:12 GMT -6
The transform does not do a full heal actually, Nate. It heals you for the exact amount of HP you gain from the transformation. For instance, Cougar gives Akira Toriyama 269 HP. It does not make his HP go to max, it merely gave him that much hp upon transformation in order to make the extra HP max even work. Perhaps it should, at the end of the fight, instead of just lowering HP to your HP max (if over that), restore it at a % based system? EG you have 500 in wereform, 200 outside. You lose 50 HP and end the battle. You have 180 left. That sounds like a good idea. Rangers are fantastically cheap right now when it comes to healing, this would be a good fix.
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Post by Rand on Apr 21, 2008 5:47:18 GMT -6
The transform does not do a full heal actually, Nate. It heals you for the exact amount of HP you gain from the transformation. For instance, Cougar gives Akira Toriyama 269 HP. It does not make his HP go to max, it merely gave him that much hp upon transformation in order to make the extra HP max even work. Perhaps it should, at the end of the fight, instead of just lowering HP to your HP max (if over that), restore it at a % based system? EG you have 500 in wereform, 200 outside. You lose 50 HP and end the battle. You have 180 left. What exactly did you think I meant? You just proved my point, thar, Kumoogle. =P
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Kumog
Hunter
[glow=orange,5,150]Master Soloist[/glow]
Kupo!
Posts: 75
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Post by Kumog on Apr 21, 2008 6:07:46 GMT -6
If Ranger doesn't get the HP upon casting, then Grizzly would be pretty damn crappy, no? I know I wouldn't want to use the form when one of its biggest boosts, the huge max HP boost, can't even take effect without at least two WMs casting Cure 3 on me.
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Post by Sur Realis on Apr 21, 2008 9:23:17 GMT -6
I know a ton of people accidentally misclick and spend their Level up points in the wrong spot. I've done it tons of times. I think there should be something to prevent this, because sometimes those 2 points you lost CAN make all the difference. Two ideas on how to go about it:
1) An undo stat points button, which will undo the immediate last points you used. It lasts only until you log out, which will officially save the stat points to the stat you added them to. Not only would this fix the problem of misclicking points, but it would also give some slight leeway for testing builds. You can't really know if a build is good or bad until Skyre, and that far in usually takes quite a bit of time unless you are a hardcore obsessive Investigator. Like Reece, for example (Go to sleep sometime! Go outside! Freak!).
2) An undo button in general, for multiple things; for example, if you use it in battle, and your turn has yet to have executed, you will be prompted to auto-retarget. If you do it inside a shop, you will Sell what you just bought at 75% gold, rather than 50%. If you are out in the field, it will undo recent stat changes.
Comments?
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Post by Rand on Apr 21, 2008 10:45:45 GMT -6
I have really mixed feelings about that kinda thing, Shane. I'll think about it though.
Ku, why do you think they get Hunt?
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Kumog
Hunter
[glow=orange,5,150]Master Soloist[/glow]
Kupo!
Posts: 75
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Post by Kumog on Apr 21, 2008 13:27:18 GMT -6
Hunt doesn't work well when you die in one volley of spells due to no ability to have magic reduction, and it takes multiple hits/party cooperation to bring down anything at PoP. Ranger would be completely gimped by that idea of a change.
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Post by Rand on Apr 21, 2008 17:21:10 GMT -6
For one, I'm more than likely adding in magic resistance. For two, enlightenment already gives a hefty amount. For three, I never said I was going to make the change in that kind of direction. Ya just figured I would and I ran with the idea for a bit.
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Post by Takahashi on Apr 22, 2008 14:57:00 GMT -6
Yeah, the 'free heal' a Ranger gets after reverting is something I would like to see fixed. The means to fix that bug is relatively simple; just divide max and current HP by the same constant that will be used to multiply them to wereform status; going from human to Grizzly would be the rounded results of HP * 2.5 and Max HP * 2.5, and reverting would divide them by 2.5.
This would mean that a Ranger who gets beat up before transforming would end up with a fair chunk of HP missing (but still more than they had in human form), and one who reverts after getting beat up would still be beat up instead of being (most likely) at full health. Suffice to say that in time we'll know for certain how wereform/human HP maintenance will work out... and suffice to say that a Ranger will have to pay attention to their condition before going in or out of wereform, rather than knowing they can do so without incident most of the time.
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Post by Jumin on Apr 22, 2008 17:07:16 GMT -6
i always thought that it was too convenient that rangers could potentially still have full hp when reverting. glad to hear that it's getting fixed
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Post by lordphoenix on May 10, 2008 0:05:02 GMT -6
Brought to you by dino slaying and idle banter.
<Captain Kangaroo>: You know. *battle spam* <Use the boost>: nothing at all, so keep walking <Captain Kangaroo>: If BB had the Hits damage raised from 20 to 40, they'd be in line. <Captain Kangaroo>: %, that is *battle spam* <LP teh Angry Beevar>: they'd be more than in line * LP teh Angry Beevar --- Meditate --- 17 MP restored. <LP teh Angry Beevar>: they'd be gods <Captain Kangaroo>: True. <Captain Kangaroo>: 30%'d be better, then. * Captain Kangaroo >> Raptor(2) --- 15 HITS -- 532 DMG <Use the boost>: 25 *battle spam* <Captain Kangaroo>: Or they could just give BB a skill that does % damage instead of this lolmajorextrahits crap <LP teh Angry Beevar>: when you're dealing with a class that is capable of hitting something 50 times, an extra 5% on each of those hits is plenty <Captain Kangaroo>: If Bum Rush did, say, 8% damage for every level the player had, it'd be as good as Crush. <LP teh Angry Beevar>: we should edit and cutpaste this to the adjustification station
I'm lazy about editing, be glad you got it this streamlined
MOAR
<Use the boost>: ITS KEWL I GOTZ DF <Use the boost>: DF sucks, by the way <Captain Kangaroo>: It's tolerable for single-target. <Use the boost>: I just as soon go for poison <Captain Kangaroo>: True. <Captain Kangaroo>: I abuse the hell out of DoT. <Use the boost>: it's better overall, and the things that are immune to poison are usually immune to DF as well <Use the boost>: single target, it has little merit. Multitarget, it's a novelty at best <Captain Kangaroo>: Yeah, 1/4 willpower damage to all is pitiful. * Deinonychus(2) >> Use the boost --- 11 DMG (WEAK) * Use the boost - Poison 3 >> Deinonychus(2) --- 309 DMG. <Captain Kangaroo>: Even an enlightened would do at most like what, 50 damage?
<Use the boost>: indeed, and by the time you get levels 2 and 3 of the spell, they're equally pathetic <Use the boost>: sweet, I can do 200 damage to all targets now, what's that you say, the lowest hp enemy here has 2000?
<Captain Kangaroo>: One way to make them more viable would be to raise the damage bonus up from like 5-7 to maybe 20-25. * LP teh Angry Beevar --- Meditate --- 16 MP restored. <Use the boost>: fuck this, I'll just blow up that lower demon over there. PEARL! <Captain Kangaroo>: It's enough of a boost to make it viable, but not enough to overpower it. *battle spam* <Use the boost>: the BEST use ever thought up for DF3 was to make golden strikers and titans burn turns spamming cure 3 instead of attacking us <Use the boost>: then I was like "jumin, why don't I just slow and weak2 spam them to fuck and back for the same desired effect with less maintenance? <Captain Kangaroo>: True. *battle spam* <Captain Kangaroo>: And DF1 or 2 would suffice for that strategy anyway <LP teh Angry Beevar>: I'd go so far as to say it's less useful than the lock series *battle spam* <Captain Kangaroo>: Maybe Darkfire should give the BLM 1/4th the damage it deals back as HP
<Captain Kangaroo>: 1/6th for DF2, 1/8th for DF3
<Captain Kangaroo>: Maximum gain of half-hp total *battle spam* <Use the boost>: or better yet, syphoning mp <Captain Kangaroo>: There you go. <Captain Kangaroo>: MP siphon
<Captain Kangaroo>: Even if it juts functions as Rasp, it'd be a good boost. <Captain Kangaroo>: I know if I had a spell that could deal 200 HP damage and 100 MP damage to all enemies, I'd probably cast the damn thing more than once. <LP teh Angry Beevar>: and I know I'd be fucking pissed when death stares started spamming that shit on me <LP teh Angry Beevar>: but eh, fair enough trade
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Post by Jumin on May 10, 2008 12:47:51 GMT -6
well, with slow2+weak2, they still hit, and can still kill. because I'm a slow, frail mage i like the cure2/cure 3 spam.
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Post by Sur Realis on May 10, 2008 18:43:52 GMT -6
well, with slow2+weak2, they still hit, and can still kill. because I'm a slow, frail mage i like the cure2/cure 3 spam. Thus why pure builds tend to suck. Anyway, my suggestion: Tower of Vwomsaun. You warp. You see blue. For about, 3 seconds. Such a waste of time, it's boring. So I propose a bird flying backwards on the screen, possibly somewhere random. And in the case it is on the player's row, they smack into it, the bird disappears, and the play loses 100 HP. For shits and giggles.
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