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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 0:58:57 GMT -6
Because although it can be important to listen to players, having the final decision rely on them never ends well. As said before, a lot of the players are stupid. If you put up a poll asking about summoners, a lot of the base players would say yes. In the end, even if players disagree with a change, if it is for the best, it has to be done. I only mention that a lot of players like the change, because you act like a bunch of people are going to leave because of it. Although, for the most part, I think people would enjoy having better and more strategetic replacements.
Perhaps we can just make polls for everything and forget about what either of us thinks. We can just call it the Playerhood and have them decide everything. And before you go on and say that is not what you mean or want, I know. Having player opinion is not bad. I just do not want people to start taking it as the final decision, for anything.
Yes, the new battle system stuff is untested. And there is more to balancing than just making everything super weak. You act like the only choices are your distorted view of the new battle system or this. What about the third option of the battle system working? Or is that just too optimistic for you?
It does not matter how many creatures or classes have an instant kill ability. It should never exist. I never said it was a huge problem, but anything that can instantly kill is not good. Do you remember the old eat compared to the new one? I know that I prefer the new one.
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Soren
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Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Apr 15, 2008 1:06:56 GMT -6
The new eat took away the challenge and threat of being in the area. The dinosaurs were much more gruesome before their teeth were removed.
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 1:10:10 GMT -6
Then this is something that we both strongly cannot be convinced of. You want instant kill abilities that do not rely on strategy, and I do not.
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Soren
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To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Apr 15, 2008 1:18:06 GMT -6
So does the opinion of the majority of our members really matter? Or do the decisions become finalized if you and you only like the idea despite other members' thoughts, but just because you like it other opinions seem to not even matter.
And this has more to do than just with Rub. The way I thought, our decisions would be group decisions. The only thing I've ever seen over-turned was the issue with players warping back from jail after being released. But that wasn't really game-affecting.
You seem to disregard all of my worries. "It'll work and it'll be better because I say it'll be better and even if less people like it, it's still better!" is basically what you're saying. It's a silly way to look at it. No wonder you hardly ever play the game. You simply don't like it. Well some of us -DO- like it the way it is. We don't need you screwing with the mechanics to make it fit your own mood.
I'm arguing because I love what we have. I love the game, it's wonderful, and that's why I wanted to become BH. You on the other hand, are arguing because you dislike it and want one too many things changed that don't need to be changed.
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 1:25:13 GMT -6
I never said only my opinion mattered. We would not be having this arguement if that was the case.
I am not disregarding your worries, but the fact that you never seem to want to even consider other changes without bring up player loss. That seems to be just your excuse to not change anything. "Oh, change that? We might lose players. Nope, we do not want that at all. We need more! More!" (Yes, I know that is not a direct quote, but that is how feel you are seeing every little thing rather than seeing it how it can affect the game in other positive ways, even when the change would probably not even lose players).
I love the game. I use to play in version four everyday that I was not in school for eighteen hours a day. And that was before all of the neat abilities and other changes. I want the changes because I want to see the game grow and get better, not stay in some time warp where everyone sits and around walks and back forth waiting for a new spell or creature to come out and do the same thing again. Yes, I do not play as much as I use to, but I still play. What is wrong with wanting to make a game better. Now suddenly you are questioning my passion for the game just because we disagree? And not only that, how do you know that I do not love the game for different reasons? For instance, it is pretty apparant that the story and atmosphere of the game had a more impact on me than to you, so you do not feel compelled to increase upon it, but rather increase what you enjoyed instead, which seems to be grinding.
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Soren
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To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Apr 15, 2008 1:36:57 GMT -6
More players is a good thing. More people to play with, more people to talk to. More people to likely be in the same area as you. There's no way you can't say that is true.
Yet I'm also worried about the CURRENT players of the game. Not the ones your changes will attract (such as making the game a strategy game and taking Final Fantasy from the name,). I don't want the people who currently play and enjoy the game to feel overwhelmed by change, or feel like their game was taken from them. This is how Kain and I both feel. We've listened to your ideas for changing the game the way you see fit, and we just don't agree.
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 1:43:01 GMT -6
Yes, having more players is nice, but it should not get in the way of making a good game. Yes, I can understand that in your opinion, what you want to change or not change makes a better game. I just hate constantly seeing the amount of players being as excuses for things.
The game would be a little different, but for the most part, I think that a lot of the players would enjoy it. As you may realize, I am also a player, even from version four. And I know that I would enjoy those changes. That is how I feel, and I know that other people feel the same way too. Change is not always bad.
However, this is something that we are always going to disagree on you. I want to have the game updated to what it was meant to be, including a more interactive world and atmosphere. You both do not want the game that way, and instead want it in its more simple form of just grinding and no real interaction with the plot to the point where most people do not know even know it exists.
A question though, what are you thoughts on the version eight bosses? Do you think they should be removed because they are too different from the original game or are more difficult than other battles?
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Soren
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To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Apr 15, 2008 2:06:12 GMT -6
That's ridiculous. We all have our own opinions on things. You yourself just have the most power overall to make those opinions of yours actually happen. Meaning, your ideas will probably be put in regardless of what the rest of us think.
I never said I disagreed with all of your ideas, however. I think the version 8 bosses are nice. Except..no offense or anything, Vallatio could use a less corny voice. That's my only complaint, as far as those go. And as far as the version 8 test of Geyzer went, that was pretty awesome too. And hearing your ideas for the rest of the bosses-- that seems to be something you do indeed have really good ideas with.
That is exactly what the people are wanting. The Geyzer test was a long time ago. They want it already, and damn if they don't deserve it for waiting this long. Updates should be taken one step at a time, and the boss changes are an excellent way of doing it. Next then, of course, would come the new map. Or I'd think. Which is a no-brainer because that's supposed to be there according to the original plot.
Now, as for that. I'm agreeing with Kain once again here when I say, I think we should really use re-colors and more sprite rips. It really helps. Not only to speed things up, but I'll have something to look at as a whole and think, "yeah, I know how to make this muuuch better." One step at a time here. The updates coming one at a time, to me, is a much better way of it happening other than all at once.
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 2:09:02 GMT -6
What exactly are you saying is ridiculous? That I have an opinion too? That I express my opinion too? What exactly?
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Soren
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To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Apr 15, 2008 2:17:42 GMT -6
You both do not want the game that way, and instead want it in its more simple form of just grinding and no real interaction with the plot to the point where most people do not know even know it exists. That was never what I said. I said including story elements was a good thing, but you'd be surprised how many people would care anyhow. I myself would like it, regardless. That being said, what do you think about the rest of that post, other than the vagueness of what I was referring to?
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 2:28:17 GMT -6
So far, that is what it sounds like. You have disagreed with every single change other than updating what is currently there, even defending grinding as a good part of the game that should stay. What am I suppose to think? Does it really matter that a certain change would not bring in loads of player? Why not focus on making a good game, even if a lot of people are not attracted to it? The story and world has so much going for it, and it is all going to waste. Even if a lot of people would ignore, I want to see the investigations and world become a bigger part. That is what the game should have been from the start. It is what the world is.
It is true, that since I can program, I have the ability to make certain things happen more than others, but so far, I have not let that ability decide things, such as the imprisonment change. Although, I would be sorely disappointed if anyone decided to keep the game the way it was and forget about adding in the investigation interactions and new graphics. I would feel like the soul of the game was being ripped apart even more, and that I was just there, helping its destruction. Although, I suppose that maybe how you feel right now if my changes went through instead.
Yes, the current Vallatio voice sucks. My voice sounds too young and was then tried to be fixed up with a bunch of editting. It would have been great if someone older would have done it, but no one else wanted to, so that is all we had.
I would also love to get the version eight bosses out. It just requires the new battle system and a little bit of reprogramming. As with the bosses, I do not think the entire version eight should be released at once, but rather, as much as possible that can be indendent from each other, such as the bosses.
I am sure you are probably quite aware just how disappointing your final paragraph is to me. I despise recolours and more rips. It is one of the things I am looking forward to in version eight, having a new look with new things to look at. To me, it has always been worth the extra work to make sure the new area looked like it was meant to be.
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Soren
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To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Apr 15, 2008 2:39:16 GMT -6
I just can't agree with that. It's what you'd like versus what would probably be the best way to go about it. Here's the scale:
Side 1: We work our butts off and probably try to rush, withhold everything, forcing everyone to wait, and then upon release get remarks such as "LOL all this took THAT long!?!? OMG"
Side 2: We release it the easier way. We explain our reasons. The players have fun with it. It's there for us to look at and debate over. We have more time to work on the new graphics without everyone waiting on us. No need to rush. Not to mention it will match. I just can't see our own graphics really looking right with the rest of the rips. It would just be silly.
Soooo...which one seems better?
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 2:45:17 GMT -6
Side 3: We continue to release what we can and make sure that it is of good quality. If people want to complain that it took too long, that is their problem. We have lives outside of the game, and they have to understand that.
You continue to go along the assumption that the entire of version eight is being released all at once, but it is not like that. It is just that some of it can only be released together because how it applies to other things. For instance, if we release the new area without first rebalancing the characters, it would just screw things up. So, having a workable character and battle changes would then have to be done first, which could even be released before the new area. I would rather release a good game.
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Soren
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To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Apr 15, 2008 2:56:25 GMT -6
What I said had noooothing to do with that. I'm only talking about the appearance of said map. It would be easier (and better, maybe not to you, but it's not like it'd be staying that way;) to release it WITHOUT all of the original icons first.
You are extremely vague when it comes to describing what you want. With that comes me not doing the right thing you want with particular icons. Even if I could make you happy with the results on my first try every time, that would still take a lot of time. And with having to redo, and redo, and redo-- it just takes even more.
I don't MIND redoing icons usually, I want it to look its best. However, it's really time-consuming not only that it involves more work, it kinda takes a toll at a persons motivation. Eventually if I find I cannot get it right, I jump to something else. Which is currently my issue with the spire. An artist draws as he himself sees. Drawing as someone else sees is extremely difficult.
This is mainly why I have set that aside and started doing other things with the graphics. Things I KNOW. You can't just say "I want it to be like this thing I saw from the Lord of the Rings (once again, pretty un-original idea of yours, Kija..). After failing in my attempts I've jumped to things that I know I can do and would still be really useful. The desert set I've done includes sand, rocks in the sand, different cacti, human remains, animal/beast remains, an animated oasis, and even animated sand that blows over a characters' icon.
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 3:04:52 GMT -6
Doing the map with ripped icons would not look as good. In fact, it would look horrible and only require having to do it later anyways. Why not just do the work now instead of having to do even more work later to fix it all? Yes, it comes out a little later, but at least it would be done right and be good.
The design was not from Lord of the Rings. I only pointed it out because they were similar, so it gave something visual to work with. I do not appreciate you constantly stating that my ideas are just things I am grabbing from crap, when that is not the case. I think the overworld spire looks pretty cool. But if you want to constantly accuse of me stealing everything by twisting my words, then sure. But I do not like it.
I am not sure how I am being vague. I gave a pretty accurate description, including an overworld icon and more visuals by pointing out something that was pretty similar, which you are now just accusing me of just directly stealing, thank you.
I have not seen any of the icons. How can I know that you are even working on anything when you never send anything? In every single meeting, I always ask if anyone has any updates. Not once did you say, "Hey, I am working on some new icons, take a look." Your response usually centered around "Nope.".
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Soren
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To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Apr 15, 2008 3:19:57 GMT -6
It wasn't "nope" more than it was "I have nothing that I wish to show at this moment." Which does NOT mean I'm not working on anything. It's just how I like to do it. When I'm un-finished with a set, or think I might come up with something else to add to said set, I probably won't give it to you until I'm sure I'm completely finished with it. That's just how I am. Instead of having to bug you with more icons from said set. That being said, you DID basically say exactly what I said you said. "I want it to be like this thing I saw from the Lord of the Rings." is basically how you put it. I'm not saying exactly like. It just didn't feel creative in the least. Which is normally how you do your other ideas in meetings as well. You also say something along the lines of "this is an idea I got from World Of Warcraft," or "I saw this from here or there". In any case, "I want it to appear as if his spire shot up out of the ground" really isn't a good way to put it.. What -I- visualize out of that is a really dirty/dusty spike coming out of the ground with doors and windows on it, and busted/cracked earth around it. More of a dirt color than black which is depicted on the map screen with it. And then you go on to say it's a smooth surface. How is that even possible with said descriptions? Does Voleron decorate homes and make sure his chamber is nice and shiny? Why would he even bother putting in the effort instead of making slaves build it for him? Anyhow- it's vague.
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 3:29:37 GMT -6
So, you are saying you want to perfect your icons before showing them, but you are okay with releasing the version eight without perfecting it? Okay, I guess that makes sense.
That is not how I said it at all. The actual spire has nothing to do with Lord of the Rings. Have you read the books? Have you seen the movies? The thing that I pointed out was similar was actually in the video game that I played after making the spire, after. You could make these towers that were sort of dark and had spikes. I pointed it out since they were sort of similar, which would help you get a better idea as to what it was going to look like. However, even then the spires are quite different. The one in the game is more uniform, such as a real tower, while mine is more organic with the spikes. If you are going to accuse me of stealing, at least make sure you quote me correctly. Do you have any idea how it makes me feel when you sit here and say that I am just stealing ideas? Not only has it made me quite mad, but it has also made me very disappointed in you, since it shows that you were not really paying attention when I was talking about it.
There were only four ideas that I mentioned from other games, which is quite minor compared to the many other ideas I mentioned. The four ideas I mentioned was fighters using rage, thieves having a token combo system, monster player versus player, and having a talent like window for other abilities. And even then, the ways that I suggested they to be implemented was different than how they are in the game. That is hardly all of my ideas. I do not like being accused of stealing, and I highly encourage that you discontinue that course right now.
Now, as for the look of the spire. I wanted a dark like spire that appeared as if rose out of the ground, much like a plant rises out of the earth grows, which is why the spikes sort of have an organic placement. The stone is smooth because I wanted it to have sort of carved out look, rather a bunch of tiled bricks stacked up, which would appear man made. You could argue that the stone could look more rough and still look like it rose out of the ground, which is okay if that is what you want to say and prefer, but that does not mean that having smooth stone suddenly does not make sense. It does not have to be perfectable smooth, just enough that it looks carved out.
"For the spire, I want it to have carved out look. As if this dark stone rose out of the ground and shaped itself with the darkest of powers. It should be sort of smooth and dark look to it. I do not want stacked up bricks, which implies more of a people work to it. The wall and floor will be a smooth black, not tiled. There would be some roughness on it to give it more of a form, with several varations, so it can flow better."
There were others as well. I was pretty specific. You even showed pictures from online yourself that we talked about.
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Soren
Hunter
To me, it was a Tuesday.
Posts: 103
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Post by Soren on Apr 15, 2008 3:47:57 GMT -6
"I want it to appear as if his spire shot up out of the ground"
I think I quoted you almost word for word, Kija. The other I stated wasn't exact, but was basically what you were getting at. That's all well and good, and yes I'll keep trying, but my motivation is pretty much shot, so I moved onto other things.
Now about you comparing my withholding the icons to the game itself..stop that. I'm working on the icons to add to the new game. By doing so I not only have you waiting, but the entire player base. The way I suggested, not only will we have something to work with as far as what could look better go, the players will actually have a new place to explore and the game will feel more complete, and give us more time to do things without being yelled at by the players.
The original icons..aren't really something they're particularly excited and waiting for. =\ Not the majority. In fact, even the people you yourself showed off the V8 monster samples gave you criticism. You could accuse me of caring too much for the community, I guess. I can't help it. As an administrator, I feel that one duty is making them happy. Is that wrong of me?
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Post by Rand on Apr 15, 2008 5:57:12 GMT -6
I didnt even have time to read all of this before I have to get ready for work, but I'll happily address all points when I have time tonight. And here's a simple damned solution, everyone. Public. Test. Server. Think about that while I'm getting burned at work. (Edit: Wow, my phone can go here! More at lunch time.) Edit 2: Ok. Grinding isn't goin anywhere boys, its just gonna have investigative rewards at the end of it, savvy? Caleb, you do tend to press on with things without a vote. Guys, you do tend to ignore a request for votes or opinions anyway! So. How about we all try being a discussive group instead of a bunch of common-goaled isolationists, mmkay? Kain. You say no one listens to you, so now is your chance to say your ideas counter Caleb! Paint me a verbal picture, pros vs cons and why, and maybe we can make everyone happy in the process. I'm seriously ashamed it took a fight to get us talking this much. Its sad. And, if anyone had something to say about nerfs or anything else, Faru and I are but clicks away. Try it, he's not stupid and I at least can tie my shoes solo. (Bug him, hes better at this than me anyway amirite Scottie?)
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 13:27:53 GMT -6
Yes, not everyone cares about having new icons. A lot of people do not care about the look. But that does not mean it should not be important. Releasing an area when it actually looks good and well put together, regardless if people care is something that should matter. Of the two icons shown so far, some people did not like the Smiler. They thought the head was too big and the neck too long. However, they liked the dark imp. And those are just two icons.
Please do not go on about the whole "I just care about the community and want them to happy." bit. We all care about the community here. I always hated when Reap did that, as if he was the sole guy there somehow keeping the community together because only he believed in their rights and wants. I care about the community a lot. And I also happen to care about releasing a quality product to the community. Is it wrong of me not wanting to release crap to people?
After a lot of the battle system and class stuff was finished, having a public test server was something that I wanted to do. Although, they seem to be against even testing it.
Grinding will have to be fixed. Yes, grinding cannot be fully removed, but there is a big difference between people walking back and forth between the same spot and getting those levels by exploring. Is that really such a bad thing to want?
The only major thing you could say I ever added to the game without a discussion was the imprisonment thing, which was changed back anyways. Everything else, we have talked about, a lot. It is not as if I am sitting here saying, "This is how the battle system will be. This is how this going to be. Okay? Good, now go do it." Everything has been discussed. Even now, we are discussing it again. Although, instead of working on the issues, I just get accused of being a thief every other post.
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Post by Rand on Apr 15, 2008 16:18:17 GMT -6
We discussed it, yes. But the point is that you pushed on ahead with it even though people were still curious or had issues about what they heard. Just what's so different, Caleb? Is it still a succesion of windows, or a window-tree, or...? Etc. How will it change things is what they wanna know.
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Post by Constantine on Apr 15, 2008 16:26:39 GMT -6
As for the meeting last night, that's entirely my fault as I forgot to check the forums while I was online and I apologize. It's easy for the people that live with their parents to look at me and say "He has no commitment."
I have to worry about feeding my family first, making this game doesn't do that. I have my 82 year old dad living with me now, and he requires 24 hour supervision. Do you have any idea what it's like to bathe an 82 year old man? I think not.
We just spent like $2000 to move into this house, my GF doesn't get paid until next friday, and my dad's SS check was all used up to move in this place. Wanna know what my fridge consists of right now? A box of baking soda.
We just got internet back saturday. My GF uses this computer FOR HER JOB. If shes needs it for work, it doesn't matter what I'm doing, I have to get off of the computer.
Maybe I'll post some more after I try to find some money for some food. Right now I feel light-headed from not eating in two days.
So, who's more tired here? Me, or you?
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 22:04:03 GMT -6
Pushed on ahead with what? What exactly have I been working on that people are disagreeing with?
I know that your life beyond the game is more important, but that does not mean the other duties should be ignored, especially without ever saying anything. Are you aware of how many meetings you have missed Constantine without a single post or warning that you are not going to be there, while at the same time, leaving thirty minutes before the meeting?
Yes, that is unfortunate. However, I do not much enjoy the whole, "Oh, who is tired now?" approach. It avoids the real issues of the discussion by just saying other people are worse off. So, I guess the next time some guy walks and up and hits you with a bat, and you yell at him, it is okay for him to say "Well, I got beat up to and almost died. In fact, all of the over world being are being beaten to death. Who is being beaten now? Huh? Yeah."
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Post by Rand on Apr 15, 2008 23:18:15 GMT -6
What have you been working on that people disagree with? Look at the first page and you have your answers right there, bud. I'm not about to retype that entire log of information.
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Post by Kija on Apr 15, 2008 23:25:01 GMT -6
The only thing I am working on right now is the battle engine, and some times random new icons. I have not seen anyone disagree with this. You act like just because I talk about stuff, that I have stockpiles of programming and work on it. That is not how it is. Speaking my opinion and ideas is not the same as pushing forward with something. Why does it always seem to feel like I am not allowed to express my opinions without people complaining that I am trying to control them or push forward with something?
"What, you think that? Well, I think this. Stop trying to control me! You are just saying what you want! What about what I want?" And then it just keeps going. I have opinions too. I am a member too. I am player too. I am going to express my opinion. I am going to have my thoughts. So, please stop acting like that does not matter, or that pushing ahead on anything just because I mention it. I do not do the same to you.
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Post by Rand on Apr 16, 2008 5:42:26 GMT -6
Whenever you mentioned your thoughts for the new engine, for example, and people said they didnt like it, enough of them that it's *still being mentioned*, yet you still ran with it, makes people *THINK* exactly that. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but that's what people are going to think if you don't give them reason otherwise.
Again, what about it is going to be so different? If you tell us a little more than you have so far about it, maybe it might not BE so different, and we can stop taking turns with hidden potshots and start feeling like mutual jackasses.
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Post by Constantine on Apr 16, 2008 9:08:42 GMT -6
Well, I said my piece and I'll leave it at that. If you can't accept an apology, that's your problem.
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Post by Kija on Apr 16, 2008 11:31:34 GMT -6
I never said "I do not accept your apology." The only thing I commented on was your avoidance of the other issues by playing on the worst off approach.
There is a difference between the new battle system and the new battle engine. I will sometimes call the new battle engine, the new battle system as well. So, it can sometimes be a little confusing. However, the new battle engine does not change the actual gameplay in anyway. The only thing it does is change how it is programmed, so that making future changes to the characters and battle would be easier to do. It is also more efficient. I never brought up too much specifics about it, since I did not think a lot of people would be interested in programming changes, and more in actual gameplay changes.
Yes, there is also the new battle system, which involves having fewer monsters in battle, a monster size, and other changes. However, that is not something that I am actually working on. It is just what I think are improvements to the game and things that I have encouraged to be implemented and tested before being thrown out.
I did not think I had to get people to agree on updating the efficiency and ease of use of changes of the game, so I never really bothered to ask. It was pretty much the same with any programming or actual improvement to the game that did not really change how it was played, which includes being able to disconnect, battlemarkers, the new teleport portal system, and the new battle engine, party merging, and a few other things. Although, if someone feels like I should be discussing the programming changes more, because they feel like changing the programming is also changing the game, then sure, I can discuss it and ask people what their thoughts are on it.
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Post by Rand on Apr 16, 2008 12:49:52 GMT -6
Some things like that are essentially features. I figured since it got brought up that it was an issue. Call me crazy or not, but it seemed like it was. I'd love to know a little more before you do something to be honest. That way we won't all look like clueless asshats when the players start commenting on it :-P
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