Post by Rand on Apr 18, 2008 23:23:32 GMT -6
Rand says:
The only thing I've not liked is that whenever someone objected to part of a change, we didnt sit down and discuss it and work out a way for us all to come to an agreement or way we can see it working. These boys are complaining about changes they don't understand because we've either not made it clear that it's mainly a NAME CHANGE or that what they think is going to change is 3x what it is.
Rand says:
We simply do not talk enough about future plans. They get brought up but we, as a team, do not vote on what sounds right for the game and what doesnt. I know I've just asked for OPINIONS before many times and never gotten anyone to respond. It's why I quit trying. Perfect example in the BH board.
Rand says:
I wouldnt care if I got votes one way or another, so long as we talked about what I brought up as a group and wrapped our minds around it. But no one once bothered to respond, and that was back i october. So it's not a new problem.
Kija says:
Of the changes that we have discussed, which ones do you disagree with so far? Do you think there should be fewer monsters for the most part? Do you think we should add investigation interactions, regardless if did not attract large numbers of players? Do you think it is worth making original icons for the spire and creatures before releasing it?
Rand says:
As to using rips or recolours. We COULD use those and redo it later. It might not look all pretty and snazzy yet. But current versions could be used for getting the information OUT there. And the rest be done for fine-tuning what we wanted as we felt it was needed, which would give us more practice along the way.
Rand says:
I'm not saying we lolripoff graphics and stay with it.
Rand says:
In a way, it might impress people more if we get this thing done and out, and then show off how much we can improve AFTERWARD with the new stuff. They'd prolly be twice as dazzled.
Rand says:
I want to see people turning their grinding into side quests and investigative searchings. I want to see people explore Ranook and find themselves at around level 20 or so finding their little story point has unlocked their inner potential, just in time to fight the king of dinosaurs. (Makes the most sense to me plot-wise)
Rand says:
See, THAT is what the young'uns dont get. Grinding and the fun of chatting with it wont go anywhere. It'll just have a story reward at the end of it.
Rand says:
I think if we'd emphasized that some, it'd have helped a little. You and I both are kinda vague sometimes, and expect everyone else to follow through the thought to the end. But some people simply dont think in that kind of direction, it's just some people's nature
Rand says:
As to monster sizes, in my eyes enfeebling magick lists % according to size anyway, so actual monster sizes shouldnt matter, and as tot he number of monsters, if their stats and battle rewards are adjusted it wont really matter. Again, though, they dont think about that. They think of the rest NOT being changed.
Rand says:
Thus, with all of this in mind the way they think they see it, of course they'll object to battle-related things being pushed on with. Because they dont understand the implications behind it, or just dont realize them.
Kija says:
With fewer monsters, I envisions battles based around intense situations where your move can really matter. With 32 creatures on the screen, pretty much all it does is turn into who can cast the most area damage. But with fewer creatures, those status spells can really come into play into disabling certain creatures before they can kill you. It would have more thought and fun in it. At least, to
Kija says:
me.
Kija says:
Sure, it is cool to see 32 monsters on the screen, but I do not think the epic quality is enough for the sacrifice it gives to everything else. It is like playing Dynasty Warriors compared to other game that is not Dynasty Warriors. This game is pretty much the same. "Lets see how many creatures we can throw at you at once and watch you kill them with little to no thought"
Kija says:
But, to them apparently, that is what they find so appealing. Mindless killing with a minor epic quality.
Kija says:
So far, it has been obvious that any major change that I want to do has been disagreed upon by pretty much everyone.
Kija says:
Why should I bother to stay and just get in the way of what the majority really wants?
Kija says:
(I will be right back. I am going to grab some quick food)
Rand says:
Short and sweet of it is this. By what I know, you're coding this game to be how Dagolar had originally created it. It was suppose to be hard, bleak, dismal, and very RP-able. Making monsters stronger, giving them skills, spells, the ability to make you think about what you're doing next...is the very essence of what Hunting Grounds is all about. Killing any and all shit in your path is what
Rand says:
you do in normal RPGs, and the storyline for this one simply cannot be seen as normal.
Rand says:
It isnt about casting Fire 7 on something and watching it melt into a puddle. It's about...going into the Kreland Desert and finding the corpse of an old scout, or heading near the mountains near Dainaria and finding old abandoned pickaxes. Or books in the Cathedral, monk recordings, recordings of masses, etc.
Rand says:
And all the many wonderful informative books one may expect to read being taught in this cathedral, as shown by all the various classroom-type areas in the levels of the tower.
Rand says:
It's a giant library of worship and knowledge, yet people go in there like a Medieval Solid Snake and only want to kill Dracula's bastard nephew.
Kija says:
But according to pretty much everyone else, doing that is not going to have any great impact on players, so it is not worth doing and will just ruin the game for the current players.
Rand says:
Be damned. I started this game and watched people create Houses. I started this game and found you being a Mystic. I started this game and found Dagolar acting like he was playing a piano in the BH tower. If people want nothing but grind, DW SOE is perfect for them.
Rand says:
It seriously takes 3 hours to get through one of the caves on there,a nd longer for another. And a tower where you have to be level 200+ to survive. That's a grinding game. This wasn't supposed to be.
Kija says:
Well, I am glad that at least some one agrees with me and sees the soul of the game as something other than mindless killing.
Rand says:
I mean, let's be honest. If people wanna grind, we can LET them grind. but it can still havea puirpoe and reward at the end of it in some sort of story-related way.
Kija says:
Exactly. No matter how interactions you add, if someone wants to walk back and forth in the same spot, there is no special mechanism preventing it. If they want to get levels by exploring, they can do that too. What really matters in grinding is not that you are getting levels, but what you are doing when you are getting them. Do you stand in the same spot or do you explore and see the world and it
Kija says:
its ruins?
Rand says:
I'd rather dig me up a skeleton or a mini-boss.
Kija says:
Me too.
Rand says:
Or a mini-boss skeleton.
Rand says:
Hell, I wouldnt care so much if it were a giant glowing DILDO so o gt to see some plot advancement from it's death.
Rand says:
so long as I got*
Kija says:
Heh.
Rand says:
You know the biggest problem we have...
Rand says:
Is that even bofore you and mahn were given Darlow to look after....if Dagolar and co. had spent a little time putting in some of this shit beforehand..readable books, a little backstory to a tiny quest, SOMETHING before they all got busy handing out their tasks to the public...this wouldnt even be an issue. Because it'd be understood.
Rand says:
Half the argument is that "Well, since we never saw Dag do it, why are we doing it now?"
Kija says:
I would have figured that the game being a roleplaying text game before, or that Skyre being a completely roleplaying game with an evolving story would have been hints enough.
Rand says:
It may not be SPOKEN, but that's the motivation for the concept
Rand says:
A lot of people don't know that, though.
Kija says:
I wish he would have never used the Final Fantasy name.
Rand says:
Yeah, I'm still drawing a fuzzy on the reasoning for that one
Rand says:
The other issue was the Spire, right? I remember there was some confusion about it.
Kija says:
The last time I spoke to Soren, he was unsure on how the icons were suppose to look and ended up asking me to make some base icons for it.
Rand says:
I mean, it's Voleron's fucking dimension. If he wanted a Taco Bell there, poof, there you have it.
Rand says:
It is shaped TO HIS WILL, am I right?
Kija says:
Pretty much. And his will is dark and twisted, much like the spire.
Rand says:
Yet smooth on the surface to hide what's there and confuse.
Kija says:
I did not want tiles, but rather the wall and floor to appear to be all one piece, as it if was carved out rather than laid out with tiles. They do not even neccesarily have to be completely smooth. But when something has a carved look, it is going to be a little smooth.
Rand says:
Clearly not manmade. Thus no to little amount of lines.
Kija says:
His question was why would Voleron bother to make such a Spire instead of forcing slaves to make it for him.
Kija says:
But that goes sort of against what the spire is suppose to represent.
Rand says:
If i can snap my fingers and have it three years faster, I'd raher do that
Rand says:
rather*
Kija says:
The spire essentially is Voleron. When you walk into that spire, you are walking into Voleron. The dead world outside his is new domain, created by his evil. He destroys all life. Inside of him, you can see how twisted he is, the destruction, death, and evil taken in different forms. It was not meant to be seen simply as some tower that was created by Voleron. It is Voleron. Not literally of course.
Rand says:
Physical personification.
Rand says:
MANIFESTED
Kija says:
Yes. But I guess that was not quite understood either.
Rand says:
To be fair, I didnt fully understand that aspect either until just now. Unless I did and forgot since it's been so long since I read it last.
Rand says:
Y'know, we really need to copypasta all of this and BH board it for reference.
Kija says:
That sounds good.
The only thing I've not liked is that whenever someone objected to part of a change, we didnt sit down and discuss it and work out a way for us all to come to an agreement or way we can see it working. These boys are complaining about changes they don't understand because we've either not made it clear that it's mainly a NAME CHANGE or that what they think is going to change is 3x what it is.
Rand says:
We simply do not talk enough about future plans. They get brought up but we, as a team, do not vote on what sounds right for the game and what doesnt. I know I've just asked for OPINIONS before many times and never gotten anyone to respond. It's why I quit trying. Perfect example in the BH board.
Rand says:
I wouldnt care if I got votes one way or another, so long as we talked about what I brought up as a group and wrapped our minds around it. But no one once bothered to respond, and that was back i october. So it's not a new problem.
Kija says:
Of the changes that we have discussed, which ones do you disagree with so far? Do you think there should be fewer monsters for the most part? Do you think we should add investigation interactions, regardless if did not attract large numbers of players? Do you think it is worth making original icons for the spire and creatures before releasing it?
Rand says:
As to using rips or recolours. We COULD use those and redo it later. It might not look all pretty and snazzy yet. But current versions could be used for getting the information OUT there. And the rest be done for fine-tuning what we wanted as we felt it was needed, which would give us more practice along the way.
Rand says:
I'm not saying we lolripoff graphics and stay with it.
Rand says:
In a way, it might impress people more if we get this thing done and out, and then show off how much we can improve AFTERWARD with the new stuff. They'd prolly be twice as dazzled.
Rand says:
I want to see people turning their grinding into side quests and investigative searchings. I want to see people explore Ranook and find themselves at around level 20 or so finding their little story point has unlocked their inner potential, just in time to fight the king of dinosaurs. (Makes the most sense to me plot-wise)
Rand says:
See, THAT is what the young'uns dont get. Grinding and the fun of chatting with it wont go anywhere. It'll just have a story reward at the end of it.
Rand says:
I think if we'd emphasized that some, it'd have helped a little. You and I both are kinda vague sometimes, and expect everyone else to follow through the thought to the end. But some people simply dont think in that kind of direction, it's just some people's nature
Rand says:
As to monster sizes, in my eyes enfeebling magick lists % according to size anyway, so actual monster sizes shouldnt matter, and as tot he number of monsters, if their stats and battle rewards are adjusted it wont really matter. Again, though, they dont think about that. They think of the rest NOT being changed.
Rand says:
Thus, with all of this in mind the way they think they see it, of course they'll object to battle-related things being pushed on with. Because they dont understand the implications behind it, or just dont realize them.
Kija says:
With fewer monsters, I envisions battles based around intense situations where your move can really matter. With 32 creatures on the screen, pretty much all it does is turn into who can cast the most area damage. But with fewer creatures, those status spells can really come into play into disabling certain creatures before they can kill you. It would have more thought and fun in it. At least, to
Kija says:
me.
Kija says:
Sure, it is cool to see 32 monsters on the screen, but I do not think the epic quality is enough for the sacrifice it gives to everything else. It is like playing Dynasty Warriors compared to other game that is not Dynasty Warriors. This game is pretty much the same. "Lets see how many creatures we can throw at you at once and watch you kill them with little to no thought"
Kija says:
But, to them apparently, that is what they find so appealing. Mindless killing with a minor epic quality.
Kija says:
So far, it has been obvious that any major change that I want to do has been disagreed upon by pretty much everyone.
Kija says:
Why should I bother to stay and just get in the way of what the majority really wants?
Kija says:
(I will be right back. I am going to grab some quick food)
Rand says:
Short and sweet of it is this. By what I know, you're coding this game to be how Dagolar had originally created it. It was suppose to be hard, bleak, dismal, and very RP-able. Making monsters stronger, giving them skills, spells, the ability to make you think about what you're doing next...is the very essence of what Hunting Grounds is all about. Killing any and all shit in your path is what
Rand says:
you do in normal RPGs, and the storyline for this one simply cannot be seen as normal.
Rand says:
It isnt about casting Fire 7 on something and watching it melt into a puddle. It's about...going into the Kreland Desert and finding the corpse of an old scout, or heading near the mountains near Dainaria and finding old abandoned pickaxes. Or books in the Cathedral, monk recordings, recordings of masses, etc.
Rand says:
And all the many wonderful informative books one may expect to read being taught in this cathedral, as shown by all the various classroom-type areas in the levels of the tower.
Rand says:
It's a giant library of worship and knowledge, yet people go in there like a Medieval Solid Snake and only want to kill Dracula's bastard nephew.
Kija says:
But according to pretty much everyone else, doing that is not going to have any great impact on players, so it is not worth doing and will just ruin the game for the current players.
Rand says:
Be damned. I started this game and watched people create Houses. I started this game and found you being a Mystic. I started this game and found Dagolar acting like he was playing a piano in the BH tower. If people want nothing but grind, DW SOE is perfect for them.
Rand says:
It seriously takes 3 hours to get through one of the caves on there,a nd longer for another. And a tower where you have to be level 200+ to survive. That's a grinding game. This wasn't supposed to be.
Kija says:
Well, I am glad that at least some one agrees with me and sees the soul of the game as something other than mindless killing.
Rand says:
I mean, let's be honest. If people wanna grind, we can LET them grind. but it can still havea puirpoe and reward at the end of it in some sort of story-related way.
Kija says:
Exactly. No matter how interactions you add, if someone wants to walk back and forth in the same spot, there is no special mechanism preventing it. If they want to get levels by exploring, they can do that too. What really matters in grinding is not that you are getting levels, but what you are doing when you are getting them. Do you stand in the same spot or do you explore and see the world and it
Kija says:
its ruins?
Rand says:
I'd rather dig me up a skeleton or a mini-boss.
Kija says:
Me too.
Rand says:
Or a mini-boss skeleton.
Rand says:
Hell, I wouldnt care so much if it were a giant glowing DILDO so o gt to see some plot advancement from it's death.
Rand says:
so long as I got*
Kija says:
Heh.
Rand says:
You know the biggest problem we have...
Rand says:
Is that even bofore you and mahn were given Darlow to look after....if Dagolar and co. had spent a little time putting in some of this shit beforehand..readable books, a little backstory to a tiny quest, SOMETHING before they all got busy handing out their tasks to the public...this wouldnt even be an issue. Because it'd be understood.
Rand says:
Half the argument is that "Well, since we never saw Dag do it, why are we doing it now?"
Kija says:
I would have figured that the game being a roleplaying text game before, or that Skyre being a completely roleplaying game with an evolving story would have been hints enough.
Rand says:
It may not be SPOKEN, but that's the motivation for the concept
Rand says:
A lot of people don't know that, though.
Kija says:
I wish he would have never used the Final Fantasy name.
Rand says:
Yeah, I'm still drawing a fuzzy on the reasoning for that one
Rand says:
The other issue was the Spire, right? I remember there was some confusion about it.
Kija says:
The last time I spoke to Soren, he was unsure on how the icons were suppose to look and ended up asking me to make some base icons for it.
Rand says:
I mean, it's Voleron's fucking dimension. If he wanted a Taco Bell there, poof, there you have it.
Rand says:
It is shaped TO HIS WILL, am I right?
Kija says:
Pretty much. And his will is dark and twisted, much like the spire.
Rand says:
Yet smooth on the surface to hide what's there and confuse.
Kija says:
I did not want tiles, but rather the wall and floor to appear to be all one piece, as it if was carved out rather than laid out with tiles. They do not even neccesarily have to be completely smooth. But when something has a carved look, it is going to be a little smooth.
Rand says:
Clearly not manmade. Thus no to little amount of lines.
Kija says:
His question was why would Voleron bother to make such a Spire instead of forcing slaves to make it for him.
Kija says:
But that goes sort of against what the spire is suppose to represent.
Rand says:
If i can snap my fingers and have it three years faster, I'd raher do that
Rand says:
rather*
Kija says:
The spire essentially is Voleron. When you walk into that spire, you are walking into Voleron. The dead world outside his is new domain, created by his evil. He destroys all life. Inside of him, you can see how twisted he is, the destruction, death, and evil taken in different forms. It was not meant to be seen simply as some tower that was created by Voleron. It is Voleron. Not literally of course.
Rand says:
Physical personification.
Rand says:
MANIFESTED
Kija says:
Yes. But I guess that was not quite understood either.
Rand says:
To be fair, I didnt fully understand that aspect either until just now. Unless I did and forgot since it's been so long since I read it last.
Rand says:
Y'know, we really need to copypasta all of this and BH board it for reference.
Kija says:
That sounds good.