The Thief - My View and Thoughts

[Dragonslayer2]

Accually, dragoons don't do all that bad soloing. and if your strength and MP are high enough, you will be able to beat the enemies. If you ask me, and my character is a dragoon so I would know, dragoons can accually be a little anti-party because of the tendency to leave the other party members to take the hits (especially when partied with 1 or more BM's) when the dragoon is forced to jump when he is weak. But that is off- track. Theives never appealed to me in the first place because of the tons of other classes that seemed to be worth more in a good fight: knights, fighters, Black Belt, and dragoon for physical attacks. Blue Mage, red mage, black mage, and sometimes the offencive spells of the white mage. Even the ranger can heal and use call of the (enter name here). So theives ARE pretty pointless.

[Firemaster]

Aug 8, 2008 13:55:17 GMT -6 Dragonslayer2 said:

Accually, dragoons don't do all that bad soloing. and if your strength and MP are high enough, you will be able to beat the enemies. If you ask me, and my character is a dragoon so I would know, dragoons can accually be a little anti-party because of the tendency to leave the other party members to take the hits (especially when partied with 1 or more BM's) when the dragoon is forced to jump when he is weak. But that is off- track. Theives never appealed to me in the first place because of the tons of other classes that seemed to be worth more in a good fight: knights, fighters, Black Belt, and dragoon for physical attacks. Blue Mage, red mage, black mage, and sometimes the offencive spells of the white mage. Even the ranger can heal and use call of the (enter name here). So theives ARE pretty pointless.

1. Because they are extremely buffed. Thats why they are going to nerf them.

2. This thread is about Thieves, please dont post about anything else but Thieves in this topic. Unless you want to make a topic about Dragoons. Unless you do that, this is a place where Thieves will be discussed. No others, unless there is a comparison being made.

For Sur Realis and all the others, I only have 1 Thief. He is not a really good thief, but he works out sometimes. I made him a pure Agility Thief so he can be a Mona/ToTE runner. So he can out-run everything in IC's except Air Elementals. So if you wanna help the people that need a run to Mona or ToTE, I would suggest that build. But you need to have another alt with him incase of an Ambush. I picked a Knight. I woulda rather picked a Whitemage but I wanted Knight to Divide shit ..

So sorry to you guys, but I have nothing good to say about Thieves because mine isnt that good. Even though its level 41.

[wizkid17]

I agree with Firemaster

[Firemaster]

Aug 8, 2008 16:21:47 GMT -6 wizkid17 said:

I agree with Firemaster

Thanks.

[Bolt]

Guess I got too worked up over this topic again. Doesn't mean I'll let up at the point Theives are not pointless. No Silent Retreat is not the reason either. But I'ma discontinue my point of view on this topic since there is hardly anyone who agrees with me. Didn't notice I was gettin into a flame war so I'ma back off. Sorry.


Anyway, the only major thing wrong with a Theif is, and I can't beileve I'm saying this, the Hide/Backstab issue. But I can see why it would take a turn to wait to attack after becoming nearly invisible. Since Backstab has a high rate of hit anyway possible make it able to be used without Hide, but with a lower hit rate. Would help with the Hide/Backstab problem, but people wouldn't bother with Hide, the main Theif Skill.

[Divusmors]

I'm sure all classes have a use and a point. Some just more hard press than others. My only post in this was really to show that all classes, with the right effort and/or level, can solo. But, there's a lot more to it than that. Even at the end of the game, a point is a point. Wasn't there a thread mentioning Dark Dragons? I think I would like to have a thief in my party, to pressure attack it, and put it to sleep, while we deal with the small monsters in case they are just as badass.That way, the blue mage could focus on helping the fight offensively, or defensively, with spells like ice, or weak2, or even barrier2.

I think half the problem with this thread is the directed view. Damage output, and outright abilities, etc are being far more favored than turn based warfare. Just because a blue mage can sleep more monsters in a turn, does not mean that's the best course of action and thus the thief is useless. That's just one example, though.. That makes sense to me, at the least.

[Firemaster]

Yeah but soon, when v8 is released, Thieves will be weakened alot. Since they are taking out all ID attacks, Bloody Murder will be gone wont it? So thus leaving it with only, Pressure Attack and Cutthroat as its big attacks. Which will then make it ALMOST useless. Unless with a Boost 3.

[Divusmors]

They've said so many times that all classes will get new skills. The new ones may very well be ones that tip them into one of the most useful, yes? And instand death attacks usually suck. They burn too much mp, and miss a lot.

[Firemaster]

Aug 8, 2008 18:37:58 GMT -6 Divusmors said:

They've said so many times that all classes will get new skills. The new ones may very well be ones that tip them into one of the most useful, yes? And instand death attacks usually suck. They burn too much mp, and miss a lot.

If I can recall, BM only takes about 3 or 4 mp. If it misses no mp is used. And I dunno about you're Thieves but my Thief barely every misses. I dont know if it has to do with all Agility or not, but my Thief rapes.

[Divusmors]

Read it's description. You're a long time player, you should know it does not have to do with agility, merely chance. Also, how does that equal all thieves can do? I also said in my last post, all classes will be getting new skills, as it's been said. As far as we know, one of their new skills may even put puree to shame. Doubt it, but since we don't know, we can only imagine.

[Firemaster]

Aug 8, 2008 19:18:36 GMT -6 Divusmors said:

Read it's description. You're a long time player, you should know it does not have to do with agility, merely chance. Also, how does that equal all thieves can do? I also said in my last post, all classes will be getting new skills, as it's been said. As far as we know, one of their new skills may even put puree to shame. Doubt it, but since we don't know, we can only imagine.

Yes I know, I dont know what, but my thief is somehow Godly.. It barely every misses BM anymore. Soloing for me is a sinche now.

Its a descendent of Nexus I assume. Lulz.

[Divusmors]

Grats to you on that, then.

[Bolt]

Fire, Cutthroat makes no more Weak Hits, its more passive than an actual skill XD

[Sur Realis]

Edit: Spoiler added to shorten post.

SPOILER: Click to show

Glad to see this thread go to hell and back.

Bloody Murder has an 80% chance to work on small enemies and a 40% chance to work on big enemies. Assuming you only attack small enemies, it's only a 2/10 chance to miss, or a 1/5 chance - almost rolling a die and looking for a single number. However, I pointed out earlier how reliance on this skill makes the Thief entirely luck based. And, fact of the matter is, it is. The smallest bit of bad luck to the Thief can't be worked around, but the smallest bit of good luck can make it fairly useful.

I think people have forgotten the reason I made this topic. I wanted to put out what I thought of the Thief, it's skills, it's growth, everything about the Thief I can point out. I pointed out, what, three times through it all, that I wanted people's opinions on the Thief themselves.

Bolt. Never did I call the Thief useless. Never did I call it pointless. Here, I'll even make it bigger.

Once the Thief has Pressure Attack, it is an ultimately useful addition to the party in more battles than not.

Seriously. It's true. It really fucking is useful. There were battles where Sur Realis, in TotE, as the only melee class there MADE the battle winnable.

But. Here's the kicker.

FOR THE FORTY-NINE LEVELS WITHOUT PRESSURE ATTACK, OTHER MELEE CLASSES HAVE EVERY ADVANTAGE OVER THEM.

And don't pop out some bullshit that Thieves never miss or Thieves dodge a lot. Sure, it may be true, but this only comes into play where it doesn't even matter anyway. Never miss? Is that so? Take out that Air Elemental then. Always dodge? Great, you can be bait for a Boosted Geyzer.

Unless you make a huge Agi build - like Firemaster (and EVEN STILL) - the Thief just doesn't have the natural Agility to dodge reliably. For example, it takes an Evasion Speed of some 250ish to reliably dodge Fire and Thunder Dragons. Three Agi a Level, the Thief starts with some 10 Agi, plus thirty from Enlightenment. The Agi-less Thief will have at BEST an Evasion Speed of about 187ish at Level 50. 217 at Level 60. This isn't counting armor weight, which drops it about another 10. At Level 50, to make your Evasion Speed high enough to dodge Dragons reliably, you need a good 80 Points in Agility. That leaves 18 to be assigned elsewhere, which effectively makes the Thief weak in the departments of output damage and cushioning for magic spam. I said it in the analysis, the Thief just has three big weaknesses that all can't effectively be covered in any way. I'd say that the BEST Thief build you could do would be Agi/HP - you won't do shit for damage, but you'll live long enough to at least try.

Edit: On second thought, I request this thread locked, and if necessary, moved to board=Spam.

Edit 2: I changed my mind. Keep this topic open so I see Bolt's next move.

[lordphoenix]

It's been confirmed by many many players that white mages, dragoons, blue mages, rangers, RED MAGES (kings of solo), and even black mages do perfectly well solo. That is all.

[Bushido]

The game is not designed so that characters solo their battles. FFTHG is supposed to be played through with parties and teamwork. Unfortunately, many people do not realize this. It's mainly because due to the number of people coming in the server to play and the scarcity of players in an area, people end up soloing most of the time. It's not really about the game's imbalance that some classes may seem "weaker" than others, but rather how people view them.

[Firemaster]

Aug 8, 2008 22:15:29 GMT -6 Bolt said:

Fire, Cutthroat makes no more Weak Hits, its more passive than an actual skill XD

Oh, well this is my first Thief ever and I havent gotten it that far yet. Wasnt really into thieves until I realized how much of a pain in the ass running to PoP and Mona was. Lol.

The game is not designed so that characters solo their battles. FFTHG is supposed to be played through with parties and teamwork. Unfortunately, many people do not realize this. It's mainly because due to the number of people coming in the server to play and the scarcity of players in an area, people end up soloing most of the time. It's not really about the game's imbalance that some classes may seem "weaker" than others, but rather how people view them.

At first the game was mostly designed to solo. At least thats whats the BH told me long ago, but then they made it so people can be in 'parties'. Sadly people abused it and made 8 different keys, that way a full party will always be there. So they changed it to just 2 keys on at one time. No more. Thats what I can remember, I think. Im not sure if thats exactly what happened because my memory of this game is fading away.

[Bolt]

Yup you could have a full party of yourself via V4. V5 is when the 2 keys hit.

On the soloing issue I'm putting out a challenge. Anyone who posts a video showing a class soloing at ToTE around the hole.

Back to topic: Fire is showing the main reason why 97% of all people who have a theif use it: Silent Retreat. Why bother making a class for a single skill? Its like making a Blackmage only for Psy. Storm or a Redmage for Instill. Pretty stupid idea.

Since I can't find the Byond login thing I can't do a base stats of a Theif, but basicly look at a Bluemage's stats and they'll match up pretty closely to a theif's. The strength and if I'm not mistaken, agility are exactly. Dex, no point there since a Bluemage only needs to melee pre-meditate. Vitality I can't remember. Their base stats are, in a nut shell, Exactly the same. Hell their HP is ptretty close.

[Milenko]

This thread has turned into an all out war.

[Sur Realis]

Aug 9, 2008 17:52:37 GMT -6 Bolt said:

Yup you could have a full party of yourself via V4. V5 is when the 2 keys hit.

On the soloing issue I'm putting out a challenge. Anyone who posts a video showing a class soloing at ToTE around the hole.

Back to topic: Fire is showing the main reason why 97% of all people who have a theif use it: Silent Retreat. Why bother making a class for a single skill? Its like making a Blackmage only for Psy. Storm or a Redmage for Instill. Pretty stupid idea.

Since I can't find the Byond login thing I can't do a base stats of a Theif, but basicly look at a Bluemage's stats and they'll match up pretty closely to a theif's. The strength and if I'm not mistaken, agility are exactly. Dex, no point there since a Bluemage only needs to melee pre-meditate. Vitality I can't remember. Their base stats are, in a nut shell, Exactly the same. Hell their HP is ptretty close.

1. People who have successfully soloed both around the TotE entrance and at Titans have been plenty. Button, for example, has done it with both a White Mage and a Dragoon. Firemaster did it for a hell of a long time with just a Red Mage. Hell, once I got Pressure Attack, Sur Realis successfully soloed for a large portion of battles she went in alone. Hikari-chan has done it with a White Mage. I'm pretty sure there are a few times Jumin soloed with Celeste to catch up on EXP because of GOD DAMNED RUB!!!. Wisdom has soloed with a Black Mage, successfully. Gabriel Penitence did solo with a Dragoon a couple of battles too - and he rarely uses Jump, Dive, or Crush in TotE. I've soloed with Bo Realis, a Black Mage, post-Psychostorm 3. Enni soloed around TotE hole plenty of times. And guess what? I'm tossing out names of people that I have seen. I don't know about anyone before I hit TotE - Saturday, January 26, 2008.

2. The entire point of the first post, my analysis, you know the really really really fucking long post? To show that it was not the Thief's stats that put them in a shithole but their skills. Blue Mages DO in fact have pretty similar stats to Thieves. But, hold on, check this out. Barrier 1, Level 14. Poison 1, Level 2. Sleep 2, Level 15. Confuse, Level 24. Weak 3, 42. Slow 3, 44. Barrier 3, 40. Seven skills infinitely more useful than the Thief, all before the Thief gets its only useful skill. Unless you make up an argument to counter the fact that Blue Mages have a shitload of magic at their disposal whereas the Thief does not, please stop comparing the two classes just for base stats, because it makes me think you didn't read my damned post, and I'm pretty sure you actually didn't.

[Bolt]

Hell I said I was finished but when people bring MY POINTS up that I'll continue. Leave my points alone, than I back off. Enough said.

[Firemaster]

Jesus Mother Fucking Christ..

Ever since I began playing this game (which was a long ass time ago, to let you know how long) I've heard the same damn thing as 'Oh shitz thi class sucks ballz!' 'Omfg this class is gay' 'Wtf this class if useless and weak!'..

And for a long ass time, I've been saying this since forever..

EVERY CLASS IS GOOD AND USEFUL IF YOU USE THEM WISELY!!!

I dont know how many fucking times I said that throughout my years of playing.

Everyone said that the redmages sucked balls.. I've been soloing it in ToTE for at least a year and a half... Its because I use it wisely..

Realis used to solo his Thief.. He uses it wisely..

Wisseh in tote,.. Uses it wisely..

Even Thorn and Lunn solo.. Gab, Button. Everyone that soloed lived because they used it wisely..

I am fucking tired of saying that.. Its a fact. We've probably proven it to every god damned class..

And Im sorry for my rough attitude and my fowl language..

[Sur Realis]

Aug 10, 2008 18:19:19 GMT -6 Firemaster said:

Jesus Mother Fucking Christ..

Ever since I began playing this game (which was a long ass time ago, to let you know how long) I've heard the same damn thing as 'Oh shitz thi class sucks ballz!' 'Omfg this class is gay' 'Wtf this class if useless and weak!'..

And for a long ass time, I've been saying this since forever..

EVERY CLASS IS GOOD AND USEFUL IF YOU USE THEM WISELY!!!

I dont know how many fucking times I said that throughout my years of playing.

Everyone said that the redmages sucked balls.. I've been soloing it in ToTE for at least a year and a half... Its because I use it wisely..

Realis used to solo his Thief.. He uses it wisely..

Wisseh in tote,.. Uses it wisely..

Even Thorn and Lunn solo.. Gab, Button. Everyone that soloed lived because they used it wisely..

I am fucking tired of saying that.. Its a fact. We've probably proven it to every god damned class..

And Im sorry for my rough attitude and my fowl language..

Again. Unnecessary shit. My post's point was to bring attention to the ultimate flaws of the Thief. I never said the Thief is useless, I never said it sucked balls, I never said it is impossible to use them. I even admitted it's possible to solo with the Thief. So instead of bitching about people think about this class or that, think about the original point of this post and possibly, y'know, maybe, brainstorm about ways to counter the flaws I have pointed out. Most people that play the game multi-key anyway and never really end up soloing, so how about trying to figure out the best way to cushion and/or augment the Thief with an alt?

Do people not even read my posts? Do people not even understand that I am in fact -agreeing- with most of the people here? And yet you are STILL ranting. I'll put it in large text again.

I NEVER CALLED THE THIEF USELESS, NOR WILL I EVER.

So stop ranting about something that has little relation to the topic. No, wait, that would be hypocritical, because I'm about to rant about how we have no food or money until Wednesday and I'm fucking hungry. God damn it you people take shit for granted and assume so much shit. For the past week my meals every day have consisted of at best two sandwiches. So stop taking the Thief for granted, stop assuming that I or anyone else is saying the Thief is useless. God damn it, read my fucking posts before you make a fucking reply.

God damn it, read my fucking posts before you make a fucking reply.

SPOILER: Click to show

You know it! Read. My. Post. Inb4. Reply.

Read first, THEN opinion. It works THAT simple. I don't get my opinion of how hungry I am and how little food I have after I've just eaten. No, that thought comes around when I haven't eaten for an abnormal amount of time. I don't think to myself, "Wow that book has a badass ending!" when I've never touched it, let alone read it or finish. So, for fuck's sake, read my fucking posts and stop assuming I am saying this or that because, guess what? I'm not!

My first post: I show my analysis of the Thief.

My second post: I countered Vahu saying that the Thief shouldn't be played with, I don't mean to say that you shouldn't play a Thief - though I do put them down to extents that every class outdoes them in almost every way, save Dex, I don't mean to say it is stupid playing as a Thief. They do contribute to the party,...

My third post: I say Thieves aren't worthless.

My fourth post: I reinforce that I never called them useless - if you would read the damn thing, I called them limited, not useless.

My fifth post: I show how there's such a long ways to go to get the one skill for Thieves that even the fucking King of Thieves agrees is useful.

My sixth post: I call the Thief a party-class.

My seventh post: I called the Thief ultimately useful with Pressure Attack.

My eighth post: I deny Bolt's point in comparing base stats and growth between the Thief and Blue Mage, and point out why the Blue Mage has it better than the Thief.

My ninth post: I bitch about how you people are assuming too much shit.

You know how flame wars start? When people get to assuming shit about the other's argument that doesn't exist.

If you don't get it now, and if you don't understand that I am not calling the Thief useless, and if you don't see how it is pissing me off when you people assume I am saying this or that when I never said it, and if you don't read at all, then get the fuck out of this thread.

And for fuck's sake learn to read.

*Foams at the mouth and goes looking for food again.*

[Firemaster]

I NEVER CALLED THE THIEF USELESS, NOR WILL I EVER.

I never said YOU called a Thief useless. If I didnt use your name that means I wasn't stating this to you.

And for fuck's sake learn to read.

I know how the fuck to read.

SPOILER: Click to show

Really YOU have to learn how to read because I wasnt directing that to you!!!!

[Sur Realis]

Aug 11, 2008 14:04:33 GMT -6 Firemaster said:

I NEVER CALLED THE THIEF USELESS, NOR WILL I EVER.

I never said YOU called a Thief useless. If I didnt use your name that means I wasn't stating this to you.

And for fuck's sake learn to read.

I know how the fuck to read.

SPOILER: Click to show

Really YOU have to learn how to read because I wasnt directing that to you!!!!

Did I ever say you were saying I was calling the Thief useless? I was pointing out that no one has said that the Thief is useless for quite a number of posts and yet people are still bitching about how the Thief is not useless. Yes. We know, we are past this point. First Bolt gets all pissy because he thinks that I called the Thief useless, then this entire subject about the Thief being useless comes up, which has no entire point because we are past that in multiple shapes and forms. Bolt is finished arguing, why aren't you? All you are doing is tossing wood into a fire that is already dead.

[Firemaster]

Sorry, I got worked up.

SPOILER: Click to show

Again

Its just that word 'useless' is just a word for people who give up way too easy. And thats not me.

I have never EVER called a class usless nor I never will. I have never given up on my characters nor I never will.

SPOILER: Click to show

I'm sorry, Sur Realis.

There is nothing useless here except that word itself.

I hate seeing that word and I hope I will never have to see it in a bad way ever again.

SPOILER: Click to show

Once again, I'm sorry, Sur Realis, for snapping at you like that.

[Sur Realis]

SPOILER: Click to show

I'd rather you apologize for making me click those spoilers just to see that you are apologizing.

[Firemaster]

Aug 11, 2008 14:29:52 GMT -6 Sur Realis said:

SPOILER: Click to show

I'd rather you apologize for making me click those spoilers just to see that you are apologizing.

Nah.. I dont feel like pressing all those keys just to apologize

[lordphoenix]

Aug 9, 2008 23:37:45 GMT -6 Bolt said:

Hell I said I was finished but when people bring MY POINTS up that I'll continue. Leave my points alone, than I back off. Enough said.

Wait just a minute, how are you going to try to engage in an argument and then turn around and make a remark as boldly flippant as "OKAY IM STATING MY SIDE AND YOU BETTER NOT ARGUE WITH ME ANYMORE BECAUSE I SIMPLY HAVE TO HAVE THE LAST WORD!!!"?

[Firemaster]

Aug 11, 2008 14:58:52 GMT -6 lordphoenix said:

Aug 9, 2008 23:37:45 GMT -6 Bolt said:

Hell I said I was finished but when people bring MY POINTS up that I'll continue. Leave my points alone, than I back off. Enough said.

Wait just a minute, how are you going to try to engage in an argument and then turn around and make a remark as boldly flippant as "OKAY IM STATING MY SIDE AND YOU BETTER NOT ARGUE WITH ME ANYMORE BECAUSE I SIMPLY HAVE TO HAVE THE LAST WORD!!!"?

Point he has.. Wait I'm not Yoda..

He has a point**.