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Post by Firemaster on Aug 12, 2008 9:01:19 GMT -6
[glow=red,2,300]RedMages[/glow] I'm not asking for a "spr omz this kics asz spellz lolz" attack. I just want your opinions. Yes they ARE the kings of solo. I've proven it, Enni has proven it. Its a fact. But today we had a long ass discussion. Me, Enni, and Gab. A RedMage against a Knight. Regular battle no boosts are included when battle begins. Who would win. Now alot of people were saying the Knight would because its a tank. Now that is true, but look at what I see here: The RedMage and Knight would enter the battle with no bars, no boosts, no fasts, or anything. The RedMages could simply whip all that up plus an extra shield. Now both are at level 50, we all agreed in the discussion. No 1 hit-kills. Those are cheap at this point. But anything else is included. Yeah I might of taken out the Knight's best chance of winning. But still, The Knight with no boost, fast, bar, shield, etc. Against a RedMage that has a fast, bar, shield, fast. Who do you think would win. The Knight would attack and do around 250 - 500 dmg. Weaks, Crits, and Morts, have its regular chances but I'm not gunna inlcude them. If the player with the RM wants they can simply heal to make sure they dont die. Or they attack and do around 300-550 dmg. Remember they have boost and fast The Knight could be on his knees at that point. Now at the time before the redmaged attacked, the Knight could've used Frenzy, Slash, or Render. Doing/Cutting in half some good damage. But if the RM was lucky, Slash would of missed, Render woul've been resisted, and Frenzy wouldn't of killed him. Now if it didnt kill him, he could've done 1 of two things. Cure 1, 2, or 3 (all one thing depending on how much dmg he took) or Drain'd. Now this is where we had our little problem with Gab. Drain does Damage AND heals yourself. Usually around 250. But then Gabriel started saying that Drain was a bit over-powered for the RedMage. Or something like that. Why is it over-powered? Or un-fair for the redmage. Everyone else (the level 1-10 noobs) said the RedMage should get something like Nuke. That will never happen. I've tried it a few times. But why is it? I think its fair. So the redmage is either Cure'ing or Draining. If he cures, its about 350-500. If he Drains about 200-300 dmg and hp back. So either way its not going to help the Knight. Skip a few turns until the RedMage is on his knees and the Knight has about 300 hp left. The RedMage can either play it safe and heal, drain, or whatever. Or he can test his luck and try to attack it and hope he gets a crit. Im saying the RedMage would win Hands-down. He can do everything needed in a battle. Knight can pretty much only attack. If the knight was about to die, he CAN retort which, if the RedMages was stupid and attacked, can probably get a pretty big number on the RM, killing it, or severely injuring it. But if it was a smart RedMage when the Knight retorted, use a magic spell and it'll be gone. Give me all of your thoughts, and add some stuff in. I dont want this to start into a flaming war. just opinions.
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Post by Sur Realis on Aug 12, 2008 10:50:47 GMT -6
The power of Frenzy would one-hit an Enlightened Red Mage even if the Knight weren't enlightened; it will never miss and even when it hits WEAK it will end up doing around 700 damage for a non-Str-heavy Knight. If it didn't kill the Red Mage then it would force the Red Mage into Curing itself while the Knight has another shot, as well as a third, and then normal attacks and Double Strike behind him. It is an extremely long stretch for the Red Mage to get up Fast, Barrier, Shield, Forcefield, and Boost - though the expected order would be Forcefield to halve the damage from Frenzy which may be enough to prevent the Red Mage from goin Critical, but it would still put a huge damper on their HP, and this is assuming the Frenzy isn't a CRITICAL or a MORTAL WOUND. If it were either of them, then that would be a dead-set death - Kayohs Realis' Frenzy CRITICALs dealt upwards to 1500 damage unboosted - when Boosted, a Frenzy CRITICAL is guaranteed to one-hit an Ice Dragon. And remember, I'm using my experiences with a Level 42 Knight that isn't Str-reliant.
Under the circumstances, however slim or impossible, the Red Mage lives the first three Frenzies and manages to get up all necessary buffs, the Knight would more than likely Retort until out of MP - in fact, that would probably happen while the Red Mage is still putting up buffs and the Knight is free to Defend for three, maybe four turns, enough for another Frenzy if required or Retort spam to death. Retort has a fairly similar damage output to Frenzy in practice; the only difference is that it is not guaranteed to hit, but with its boosted chance to hit and the Knight's probable points spent in Dexterity, it is at least a fairly good chance for this to hit as soon as the Red Mage wants to attack - Retort effectively stops the Red Mage from physically attacking the Knight unless they have a deathwish. This leaves the Red Mage with Drain, which doesn't heal as much as Cure 3 and ends up being MP wasted, and his Elemental spells, which probably would not do as much as normal attacking would, and gives the Knight a few more turns to defend for MP (remember they get HP too) to attempt another Frenzy.
If the Red Mage were somehow in any way able to survive the first number of attacks relentlessly let loose on him, then it is an extremely high chance for him to win, though he would be low on MP by this point, which leaves attacking the Retorting Knight or Meditating and give the Knight another chance to live.
My reasoning.
Red Mages get stronger as the battle goes on. Knights are like an explosion of damage then destructive after-effects. The Red Mage fighting the Knight would be like a human fighting a building rigged to a mid-scale bomb. If the human is able to find a safe hole, and can hide inside it and not get killed by the bomb when it goes off, he/she's home free because the building is destroyed along with the bomb. However, the possibility surviving the explosion, the fire, the debris, the smoke, and etc. are slim in itself and there is no way they'll get out unscathed.
While the Red Mage, with time, can become the ultimate powerhouse with multiple leg-ups on the Knight, the Knight is just equipped to specifically dish out large amounts of damage in few turns and then to last at least for a while before the fire is snuffed out.
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Post by Firemaster on Aug 12, 2008 11:09:44 GMT -6
Thats exactly how you solo a RedMage Take the damage first,, then when they are done with mp, thats when you strike. Well thats how I did it and it always worked for me. But not in battles like real battles anymore. But what I want to know is why Gabriel thinks that Drain is over-powered for the RedMage. It seems suitable for it.
And if the RedMage survived all those attacks and they are both mediteating and resting for mp, the RedMages Fire, Lit, or Ice should both be around 500 - 700 Damage. in just 2 rounds the RedMage can win. Well, thats how it was for me.
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Post by Sur Realis on Aug 12, 2008 12:11:50 GMT -6
The point is the Red Mage won't survive the blast. The only exact way to surely survive it is for the Knight to hit three Frenzy WEAKs in a row, which is extremely unlikely. It's like Red Mage versus Black Mage. The Black Mage has Nuke. Nothing you can do to change that you will lose to that, in no way. You won't kill the Black Mage in one shot and when it goes you are dead meat.
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Post by Bushido on Aug 12, 2008 13:23:51 GMT -6
Yep, the power of defending is awesome, letting you "recharge" to shoot out another damaging blow. ;D
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Post by Milenko on Aug 12, 2008 14:12:29 GMT -6
A frenzy would hurt the RM quite bad if not death. The retort would be worse if it was physical. So the RM would have to use magics inorder to avoid that problem.
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Post by Bushido on Aug 12, 2008 14:18:40 GMT -6
And let's us not forget about the power of retort and its awesomeness of being able to be recycled and not wasted. If the knight use retort, and the redmage doesn't attack that turn, the knight still has retort on him. So basically the redmage is rendered unable to attack the knight, unless he wants to get hit of course. ;D
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Post by Milenko on Aug 12, 2008 14:22:30 GMT -6
And let's us not forget about the power of retort and its awesomeness of being able to be recycled and not wasted. If the knight use retort, and the redmage doesn't attack that turn, the knight still has retort on him. So basically the redmage is rendered unable to attack the knight, unless he wants to get hit of course. ;D I do believe i just stated that. = D
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Post by Bushido on Aug 12, 2008 14:26:17 GMT -6
Oh sorry, I wasn't reading carefully. ;D
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Post by Milenko on Aug 12, 2008 14:31:10 GMT -6
Lol good job. But besides those 2 things i think a RM would have a chance.
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Post by Firemaster on Aug 12, 2008 14:46:54 GMT -6
And let's us not forget about the power of retort and its awesomeness of being able to be recycled and not wasted. If the knight use retort, and the redmage doesn't attack that turn, the knight still has retort on him. So basically the redmage is rendered unable to attack the knight, unless he wants to get hit of course. ;D Well than a SMART Redmage would use Magic. I dont know if your smart with Redmages or not but I am. I've solo'd with it for hell of a long time. i know how to use one very well.
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Post by Bushido on Aug 12, 2008 15:18:29 GMT -6
Sorry, I didn't meant to make my statement to be offensive to anybody.
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Post by Sur Realis on Aug 12, 2008 15:24:42 GMT -6
And let's us not forget about the power of retort and its awesomeness of being able to be recycled and not wasted. If the knight use retort, and the redmage doesn't attack that turn, the knight still has retort on him. So basically the redmage is rendered unable to attack the knight, unless he wants to get hit of course. ;D Well than a SMART Redmage would use Magic. I dont know if your smart with Redmages or not but I am. I've solo'd with it for hell of a long time. i know how to use one very well. That's not the point. You can be the best damned Red Mage in the world, a Frenzy will one-hit you.
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Post by Firemaster on Aug 12, 2008 15:42:27 GMT -6
Not neccessarily one-hit. An Enlightened RedMage would have about 750 hp.. Unless the Frenzy gets above 750 crit or normal attack, the redmage can be fine. Cure 3 would give back about 400 hp which would bring it back to about 700 hp again. Than just repeat until the Knight lost mp.. Than strike with your Drain, and Elementals.
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Post by Takahashi on Aug 12, 2008 15:52:16 GMT -6
I think the idea is that the longer the fight goes, the better the odds are for the RM. The problem is that Knights can easily end the fight within the first four rounds in spite of anything the RM tries because of a potential Frenzy/Frenzy/Defend/Frenzy strategy (Knights have 11 MP at level 50). It largely depends on how the Knight and RM each act in those rounds, of course, but the battle plan above can tear through even the most defensive-minded RM if one or more of the Frenzies are critical or mortal.
So basically, it seems like the best approach for a Knight is one that relies largely on burst damage right at the start; waiting means more time for the RM to set up their defenses which makes the Knight's job harder (and maybe impossible at a certain point). If the RM is so inclined, it may turn into a fight where the only surefire way to deal damage is through Frenzy, since everything else will either do nothing if the RM wants it to do nothing (magic-built RM means zero chances of Retort going off) or hit at roughly half the usual accuracy due to a Slow 1/Fast 1 combo (the key here is how many casts it takes for the Slow to take; Enlightenment makes it a 50/50 chance of the RM's turn being wasted).
So that infers the best approach for a RM is then to try to weather the early storm. If they can get through the first three Frenzies without being in dire condition, they can then work on fortifying themselves (Forcefield again if it went down, whichever defensive spells they don't have active, Fast 1 to reduce the effectiveness of almost everything the Knight can use, Slow 1 to make it such that even Retort has lower odds of success than a normal attack usually would). At that point, I'd think it's the RM's fight to lose, barring RNG fuckery like a mortal Frenzy when the RM isn't at full HP.
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Post by Milenko on Aug 12, 2008 20:15:14 GMT -6
I think the idea is that the longer the fight goes, the better the odds are for the RM. The problem is that Knights can easily end the fight within the first four rounds in spite of anything the RM tries because of a potential Frenzy/Frenzy/Defend/Frenzy strategy (Knights have 11 MP at level 50). It largely depends on how the Knight and RM each act in those rounds, of course, but the battle plan above can tear through even the most defensive-minded RM if one or more of the Frenzies are critical or mortal. So basically, it seems like the best approach for a Knight is one that relies largely on burst damage right at the start; waiting means more time for the RM to set up their defenses which makes the Knight's job harder (and maybe impossible at a certain point). If the RM is so inclined, it may turn into a fight where the only surefire way to deal damage is through Frenzy, since everything else will either do nothing if the RM wants it to do nothing (magic-built RM means zero chances of Retort going off) or hit at roughly half the usual accuracy due to a Slow 1/Fast 1 combo (the key here is how many casts it takes for the Slow to take; Enlightenment makes it a 50/50 chance of the RM's turn being wasted). So that infers the best approach for a RM is then to try to weather the early storm. If they can get through the first three Frenzies without being in dire condition, they can then work on fortifying themselves (Forcefield again if it went down, whichever defensive spells they don't have active, Fast 1 to reduce the effectiveness of almost everything the Knight can use, Slow 1 to make it such that even Retort has lower odds of success than a normal attack usually would). At that point, I'd think it's the RM's fight to lose, barring RNG fuckery like a mortal Frenzy when the RM isn't at full HP. Yeah that about sums up this thread.
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Post by Rand on Aug 13, 2008 0:37:14 GMT -6
You dont start with Forcefield first, anyway. You save that for when you get at the very LEAST, Barrier going. Maybe Shield also. THEN you Forcefield, and not before. Barrier and Shield are continuous, Forcefield is not.
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Post by Takahashi on Aug 13, 2008 15:40:29 GMT -6
You dont start with Forcefield first, anyway. You save that for when you get at the very LEAST, Barrier going. Maybe Shield also. THEN you Forcefield, and not before. Barrier and Shield are continuous, Forcefield is not. That may be, but in a fight where your opponent's entire arsenal does physical damage, shouldn't your first course of action be the one that reduces the damage by 50% (Forcefield) and then the one that reduces it by 30% (Barrier 1)? If the Knight manages to land a Frenzy strong enough to break FF on the first or second round, odds are good that it'd be strong enough to maim or outright kill the RM under Barrier 1. I just figure that the difference between taking 70% of a Frenzy and taking 50% of one is rather important in the early rounds, where the Knight still has the MP to throw it out back to back to (almost) back.
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Post by Sur Realis on Aug 13, 2008 15:45:39 GMT -6
You dont start with Forcefield first, anyway. You save that for when you get at the very LEAST, Barrier going. Maybe Shield also. THEN you Forcefield, and not before. Barrier and Shield are continuous, Forcefield is not. That may be, but in a fight where your opponent's entire arsenal does physical damage, shouldn't your first course of action be the one that reduces the damage by 50% (Forcefield) and then the one that reduces it by 30% (Barrier 1)? If the Knight manages to land a Frenzy strong enough to break FF on the first or second round, odds are good that it'd be strong enough to maim or outright kill the RM under Barrier 1. I just figure that the difference between taking 70% of a Frenzy and taking 50% of one is rather important in the early rounds, where the Knight still has the MP to throw it out back to back to (almost) back. Thank you, Taka. Exactly what I was thinking when I stated that the Red Mage would start with Forcefield. However, Nate has a point that Barrier would be continuous - whereas Forcefield can break which leaves the Red Mage with no defenses and little HP, with some luck they can live the first Frenzy and still have the damage reduction AND be able to cure themselves back to full health. On this stance, the first turn would depend entirely on how 'lucky' the Red Mage would feel, though the little differences between the two because an unlucky (for them) hit is just as bad either way. Either way, a CRITICAL or MORTAL WOUND from a Frenzy would almost surely kill a Red Mage, no matter their choice, unless they are built specifically for the purpose of the fight, which would involve much HP and Vitality.
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Post by Firemaster on Aug 13, 2008 17:48:25 GMT -6
If the RedMage has a ForceField on the first round, pretty much only a Mortal Wound can kill it in one-hit. A Critical would only bring it below 100 hp. Unless if the Knight is complete Str and Dex. I think thats the right build I'm not sure Other than that the Knight is gunna have to push the battle longer, which gives the RedMage more of a chance. Since RedMages get their advantage within the length of the battle.
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Post by Divusmors on Aug 13, 2008 20:29:15 GMT -6
Force field is the worse thing to use. If it's below 100 hit points, at tote, it is very wounded. He is crouching, and lost force field. So now your options are heal, or put something up to reduce damage. Obviously, you heal, and will be hit again. With there still being a chance that it'll be a mortal wound. Last thing the red mage is going to want to do, is keep giving the knight chances to hit that mortal wound, or a critical on a slash or frenzy, especially if it's full hits or max damage on base damage.
If the knight was smart with that, it'd use a normal attack, let you get that heal up, since you'll be wounded enough for that next power hit to kill you even with force field, since the normal hit would be for more than 100. More so if the knight landed a double strike.
The thing that gives the knight a very good chance is not a powerful hit to kill. Just get the red mage in a cure pattern, Having to cure, or die, or be wounded enough after the next round to die. Better if done with normal attacks, that way you outlive the red mage's mp a lot easier, and stock your own for that frenzy. That's the biggest advantage the knight has over the red mage.
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Post by Sur Realis on Aug 13, 2008 20:34:04 GMT -6
If the RedMage has a ForceField on the first round, pretty much only a Mortal Wound can kill it in one-hit. A Critical would only bring it below 100 hp. Unless if the Knight is complete Str and Dex. I think thats the right build I'm not sure Other than that the Knight is gunna have to push the battle longer, which gives the RedMage more of a chance. Since RedMages get their advantage within the length of the battle. Dex is completely unneeded for this battle. Str is only required since Frenzy always hits. First of all, a pure Str Knight would annihilate the Red Mage unless the Red Mage was either pure HP or pure Vit, or possibly both. Second of all, where you state that with Forcefield the first attack would only bring them down to 100 HP, I'd like to point out that's another Frenzy coming at you and you having no defenses at all. Barrier would, theoretically, be the best choice for starting the battle for the Red Mage, but here is where things get funny. Barrier is actually the better choice overall, because it will never fade unless the Red Mage is dead. But the Red Mage, having Barrier, won't be able to keep up with the damage output of Frenzies of even a Level 42 unenlightened Knight with barely 1/4 stat points in Str with Mona equipment. WEAK hits from this Knight will barely be matched by a WP/Vit Red Mage. The Pure WP Red Mage will barely overcome these WEAK hits, but a lot is left open for larger numbers that can one-hit this Red Mage. A single Crit will put the Red Mage at enough of a deficit that the Knight almost surely has the battle won - remember, I am always referring to the Knight as my Knight, Level 42, yada yada yada. Two Crits in a row and the Red Mage is dead. A MW and the Red Mage might live by the hair on its chinny chin chin depending on the number of HITs that land. The third Frenzy, which must come at the fourth turn, is pointless, until I assume the Knight is Level 50 with a build optimized for this battle like I am the Red Mage. Instead, I will assume the third turn is a Slash, and the fourth turn an attack. After the fourth turn, there is no point commenting any further because the Red Mage has won on the conditions that the Knight does not pull a Double Strike MortalMortalWoundWound from its ass. Now. The Vit/WP build for the Red Mage is most likely preferable for this battle. This will drop any attacks from the Knight an extra fifty damage, roughly, bumping it up to a generous 250 damage deficit. The WP part will give an extra 100 to Cure 3, which is just enough to match the WEAK Frenzy. Turn 1: Red Mage - Barrier 1 -15 MP Knight - Frenzy -4 MP
The lowest end Frenzy will deal roughly 600 damage. Minus 250 for equipment, Vit, etc.., you are left with 350. 70% of this is 245. To make things easier overall, and because I really don't want to take in account of each hit and am a lazy fuck, let's just 150% it for a normal hit, 300% it for a Critical, and 400% it for a Mortal Wound. 367.5 Normal. 735 Critical. Whoa. Let's stop there. The Red Mage, upon Enlightenment and without points in HP, will have like 785 HP. An Unenlightened Knight with very little Str, and Mona equips, will leave the Red Mage with about 50 HP on a Critical hit. Cure 3 will hit at best 410. The next turn, then, the Red Mage will have roughly 460 HP. Mortal Wound on this turn? Bamded.
Turn 2: Red Mage - Cure 3 -35 MP Knight - Frenzy -4 MP
Red Mage will be full on HP if it were a normal or WEAK hit. Same things apply here. Except, if the last hit was a Critical, then weak leaves the Red Mage with 215, normal leaving with 93. Critcrit or Critmortal will kill the Red Mage here. If the last hit wasn't a Critical, look at the last turn.
Turn 3: Red Mage - Cure 3 -35 MP Knight - Slash -2 MP
The Knight's Slash, under the circumstances pointed out above, will do roughly 500 damage. 250 for Vit, 175 for Barrier 3. If at any point the Knight Crit with a Frenzy, the Red Mage will have to Cure 3 after this attack, unless they have a date with death. It is fairly unlikely for Slash to miss, and since I am assuming the Knight is a crippled old dog in comparison, I will also assume this hits.
Turn 4: Red Mage - Cure 3 -35 MP Knight - Attack
The Red Mage is down half their MP just surviving the first explosion. Here comes the debris. If the Red Mage survives this attack, they win. Here on I talk of the Knight as equal to level and Enlightenment as the Red Mage. The Pure Str Knight, Enlightened, etc., will do roughly 200 extra damage across the board. How does this hurt the Red Mage, then? 450 - WEAK Frenzy. 675 - Normal Frenzy. 1350 - Critical Frenzy. There you have it. Two normal Frenzies will more likely than not take out the Red Mage. 785 - 675 = 110 + 410 = 520 - 675 = The Crit or MW Frenzy will take out said Red Mage on the spot. If the Red Mage chooses to Forcefield, the normal Frenzy. will nuke the Forcefield, and they will die to a second normal Frenzy. If you want to tell me they will live from a WEAK Frenzy somewhere in the equation, I will point out it is a three to one ratio for the WEAK to pop up and the Red Mage should just stay the fuck away from U. Dye. I mean, the Knight. Right off the bat the Red Mage only has a 50% chance to live the first round and a ~35.5% chance to live the second round. Then it is either a 25% chance to live the fourth round or a 50% chance to live it, depending on the Red Mage's choice between Forcefield and Barrier in the first turn. Look at it like this. If I said you had a 65% chance to get shot in the head by leaving the house, would you leave the house and take your minimal chances or stay the hell where you are?
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Post by Divusmors on Aug 13, 2008 20:57:06 GMT -6
Same reasons why a dragoon would dominate pvp, considering how the red mages seem to be compared in this thread, than thieves in the other thread. And sorry for the whole 'change of class' some of you might think of, but I think it's worthy of the discussion, since it shows another good example for the red mage/knight thing.
The dragoon jumps, and lands. It will use crush, obviously, and the other will die. Maybe, like what (not doing the math) 5% chance factor of minimum hits on a weak crush? Only that way would a knight live to retort. The odds are just too small to bother with. Why take the chance?
Oh, and I just remembered something I've heard several times over, way in the past. Slash is a lot less mp than frenzy, yes, but can be comparable to frenzy. With slash, it's all on damage, not so much hits. With frenzy, the more hits you have, more wider the difference is between minimum and maximum, which can ruin the damage in more ways than slash. And on both, they still have the same variance when it comes to base damage.
So, if you can compute the math on that one, too, how it could go with slashing instead of frenzy, I would like to see it. But I'm not as sure in my math skills as you seem to be in your's.
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Post by lordphoenix on Aug 14, 2008 7:13:28 GMT -6
If the RedMage has a ForceField on the first round, pretty much only a Mortal Wound can kill it in one-hit. A Critical would only bring it below 100 hp. Unless if the Knight is complete Str and Dex. I think thats the right build I'm not sure Other than that the Knight is gunna have to push the battle longer, which gives the RedMage more of a chance. Since RedMages get their advantage within the length of the battle. Critical brings them below 100 hp, then what? They have to spend a round curing with no protection, the next frenzy will likely kill them outright.
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Post by Firemaster on Aug 14, 2008 8:10:07 GMT -6
If the RedMage has a ForceField on the first round, pretty much only a Mortal Wound can kill it in one-hit. A Critical would only bring it below 100 hp. Unless if the Knight is complete Str and Dex. I think thats the right build I'm not sure Other than that the Knight is gunna have to push the battle longer, which gives the RedMage more of a chance. Since RedMages get their advantage within the length of the battle. Yeah I think I just realized that o.o And if the RedMage is a pure WP/Vit an Elemental should kill the Knight shouldnt it? It'll do around 500-700 damage. And the Knight, if I can remember, only has around 650-700 hp at level 42 Since Sur Realis refers to his level 42 Knight. So if the RedMage was lucky it would kill the Knight or leave it with less than 50 hp... And if so the RedMage can finish him off since the RedMage has more speed than the Knight. And btw, on the turn the RedMage used his/her elementals the Knight was resting to get MP back.
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Post by U. Dye on Aug 14, 2008 9:40:53 GMT -6
If the RedMage has a ForceField on the first round, pretty much only a Mortal Wound can kill it in one-hit. A Critical would only bring it below 100 hp. Unless if the Knight is complete Str and Dex. I think thats the right build I'm not sure Other than that the Knight is gunna have to push the battle longer, which gives the RedMage more of a chance. Since RedMages get their advantage within the length of the battle. Dex is completely unneeded for this battle. Str is only required since Frenzy always hits. First of all, a pure Str Knight would annihilate the Red Mage unless the Red Mage was either pure HP or pure Vit, or possibly both. Second of all, where you state that with Forcefield the first attack would only bring them down to 100 HP, I'd like to point out that's another Frenzy coming at you and you having no defenses at all. Barrier would, theoretically, be the best choice for starting the battle for the Red Mage, but here is where things get funny. Barrier is actually the better choice overall, because it will never fade unless the Red Mage is dead. But the Red Mage, having Barrier, won't be able to keep up with the damage output of Frenzies of even a Level 42 unenlightened Knight with barely 1/4 stat points in Str with Mona equipment. WEAK hits from this Knight will barely be matched by a WP/Vit Red Mage. The Pure WP Red Mage will barely overcome these WEAK hits, but a lot is left open for larger numbers that can one-hit this Red Mage. A single Crit will put the Red Mage at enough of a deficit that the Knight almost surely has the battle won - remember, I am always referring to the Knight as my Knight, Level 42, yada yada yada. Two Crits in a row and the Red Mage is dead. A MW and the Red Mage might live by the hair on its chinny chin chin depending on the number of HITs that land. The third Frenzy, which must come at the fourth turn, is pointless, until I assume the Knight is Level 50 with a build optimized for this battle like I am the Red Mage. Instead, I will assume the third turn is a Slash, and the fourth turn an attack. After the fourth turn, there is no point commenting any further because the Red Mage has won on the conditions that the Knight does not pull a Double Strike MortalMortalWoundWound from its ass. Now. The Vit/WP build for the Red Mage is most likely preferable for this battle. This will drop any attacks from the Knight an extra fifty damage, roughly, bumping it up to a generous 250 damage deficit. The WP part will give an extra 100 to Cure 3, which is just enough to match the WEAK Frenzy. Turn 1: Red Mage - Barrier 1 -15 MP Knight - Frenzy -4 MP
The lowest end Frenzy will deal roughly 600 damage. Minus 250 for equipment, Vit, etc.., you are left with 350. 70% of this is 245. To make things easier overall, and because I really don't want to take in account of each hit and am a lazy fuck, let's just 150% it for a normal hit, 300% it for a Critical, and 400% it for a Mortal Wound. 367.5 Normal. 735 Critical. Whoa. Let's stop there. The Red Mage, upon Enlightenment and without points in HP, will have like 785 HP. An Unenlightened Knight with very little Str, and Mona equips, will leave the Red Mage with about 50 HP on a Critical hit. Cure 3 will hit at best 410. The next turn, then, the Red Mage will have roughly 460 HP. Mortal Wound on this turn? Bamded.
Turn 2: Red Mage - Cure 3 -35 MP Knight - Frenzy -4 MP
Red Mage will be full on HP if it were a normal or WEAK hit. Same things apply here. Except, if the last hit was a Critical, then weak leaves the Red Mage with 215, normal leaving with 93. Critcrit or Critmortal will kill the Red Mage here. If the last hit wasn't a Critical, look at the last turn.
Turn 3: Red Mage - Cure 3 -35 MP Knight - Slash -2 MP
The Knight's Slash, under the circumstances pointed out above, will do roughly 500 damage. 250 for Vit, 175 for Barrier 3. If at any point the Knight Crit with a Frenzy, the Red Mage will have to Cure 3 after this attack, unless they have a date with death. It is fairly unlikely for Slash to miss, and since I am assuming the Knight is a crippled old dog in comparison, I will also assume this hits.
Turn 4: Red Mage - Cure 3 -35 MP Knight - Attack
The Red Mage is down half their MP just surviving the first explosion. Here comes the debris. If the Red Mage survives this attack, they win. Here on I talk of the Knight as equal to level and Enlightenment as the Red Mage. The Pure Str Knight, Enlightened, etc., will do roughly 200 extra damage across the board. How does this hurt the Red Mage, then? 450 - WEAK Frenzy. 675 - Normal Frenzy. 1350 - Critical Frenzy. There you have it. Two normal Frenzies will more likely than not take out the Red Mage. 785 - 675 = 110 + 410 = 520 - 675 = The Crit or MW Frenzy will take out said Red Mage on the spot. If the Red Mage chooses to Forcefield, the normal Frenzy. will nuke the Forcefield, and they will die to a second normal Frenzy. If you want to tell me they will live from a WEAK Frenzy somewhere in the equation, I will point out it is a three to one ratio for the WEAK to pop up and the Red Mage should just stay the fuck away from U. Dye. I mean, the Knight. Right off the bat the Red Mage only has a 50% chance to live the first round and a ~35.5% chance to live the second round. Then it is either a 25% chance to live the fourth round or a 50% chance to live it, depending on the Red Mage's choice between Forcefield and Barrier in the first turn. Look at it like this. If I said you had a 65% chance to get shot in the head by leaving the house, would you leave the house and take your minimal chances or stay the hell where you are? While I would agree that you'd wanna stay the hell away from me, I gotta ask... why'd you mention me of all people?
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Post by Sur Realis on Aug 14, 2008 11:30:56 GMT -6
You leave a hell of a legend behind you. You have no idea how often you are brought up on THG - it is almost impossible to get to TotE without at least hearing the name 'U. Dye' on the way. But, I mostly chose to say you because, if I recall correctly, you don't use a Str-reliant build for your Knight and are still devastating. While I did use a projected pure Str-build in that analysis, which was mostly purely estimations past what my Level 42 Knight will do, you are one of the best Knights out there, are bloodthirsty, and I don't know any other people that I could use as an example, since most of the oldbies that are as well-known as you are haven't been on pretty much ever since I started playing THG. I at least was in one battle with you. (It was awesome.)
Kinda like using Katrina to represent hurricanes. She fucked a lot of people over, some hurricanes don't do that. But just because some hurricanes don't do that doesn't mean you should test your luck when faced with one.
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Post by Firemaster on Aug 14, 2008 11:52:49 GMT -6
Everyone wants to be in a battle with U. Dye.. He owns..
As for the post i gotta say its all true.
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Post by Takahashi on Aug 14, 2008 16:35:18 GMT -6
If the RedMage has a ForceField on the first round, pretty much only a Mortal Wound can kill it in one-hit. A Critical would only bring it below 100 hp. Unless if the Knight is complete Str and Dex. I think thats the right build I'm not sure Other than that the Knight is gunna have to push the battle longer, which gives the RedMage more of a chance. Since RedMages get their advantage within the length of the battle. Critical brings them below 100 hp, then what? They have to spend a round curing with no protection, the next frenzy will likely kill them outright. Well, if the critical is bringing them to 100 HP under Forcefield, that same critical would instantly kill them under Barrier 1. Better that you have a chance of recovering than 'well, better luck next time'.
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Post by Sur Realis on Aug 14, 2008 17:01:35 GMT -6
Theoretically, the Red Mage has less of a chance to win than the Knight, so the Red Mage should just avoid picking the fight in the first place.
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