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Post by Sur Realis on May 7, 2009 5:21:05 GMT -6
7. Psychostorm and darkfire have been changed. When attacking the field, there is only a fifty percent chance that the spell will succeed on any one creature. 5x5 area attacks have been reduced back to 3x3.
Psychostorm and Darkfire have been now made more-or-less useless outside of Ruoze - and it's even pretty useless there too. Psychostorm wastes too much MP to be helpful hitting with a 50% chance - this almost kills one of the big reasons of USING Psychostorm in ToTE. At least make it 70%; or else, there's really no point in keeping it in the game.
3x3 area attacks. (HAHAHAHA DIVUS YOUR PUREE SUCKS ASS NOW) <-- That too, but mainly, I wanted to point out this makes Ice a complete failure now. Basically, there are five enemies worth using Ice on, ever, now. Dust Devils, Sand Scorps, Wyverns, Salamanders, and Gargoyles. Using Ice with a 3x3 area will hit, at most, 9 enemies - it's pretty rare to see 9 small enemies compact together.
The biggest problem with Ice having a 3x3 area, though, is that it fucks over areas on big enemies. It makes it so that you HAVE to target them one at a time or use Lit/Fire, in which case, the enemies just NEVER line up for areas like that. Targetting them one at a time would almost always be better because of that.. Imagine, for example, Kaug's Bridge.
x o x o x o
o o o o o o
x o x o x o
o o o o o o
x o x o x o
Where X is a troll, and o is an (icon) empty space, mob-wise. With 3x3 area, you can only hit one troll at a time.
Killing Kaug was tedious enough without a well-organized party and someone who knows what the hell they are doing. Imagine a group of newbies trying to go against him without help from anyone that knows how to waste Kaug. This effectively makes Kaug battles take EVEN LONGER.
So, make Ice a 4x4, at least. Puree, too, so Reap doesn't whine about phailing and having to use Divide now.
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Post by Kija on May 7, 2009 6:11:08 GMT -6
I wanted to remove psychostorm, but sometimes things just end up being a compromise.
As for the 3x3, when I implemented the change, I also did go around and view battles. I saw plenty of battles that had arrangements for ice. I would rather believe what I witness than just claims. The change is meant to make ice less useful, it succeeds in that. However, ice is still very useful and can still be used plenty often. It is only reduced in that aspect, not removed so much that it is useless.
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Post by Speedy mc Speedy, Infamous DG2 on May 7, 2009 8:23:44 GMT -6
Oh my god, everyone, look! Less abusive grinding stuff!!!!
-Personally likes this change-
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Post by Sur Realis on May 7, 2009 9:06:56 GMT -6
Oh my god, everyone, look! Less abusive grinding stuff!!!! -Personally likes this change- Oh my god, everyone, look! A fucking kiss-ass!!!! I wanted to remove psychostorm, but sometimes things just end up being a compromise. As for the 3x3, when I implemented the change, I also did go around and view battles. I saw plenty of battles that had arrangements for ice. I would rather believe what I witness than just claims. The change is meant to make ice less useful, it succeeds in that. However, ice is still very useful and can still be used plenty often. It is only reduced in that aspect, not removed so much that it is useless. There's a large problem here, though. I don't disagree with making ice less useful. Using other elements would be cool for a change. But what you are doing is removing most of the things that give players an edge to speed up the enormously insane grind that the game is. If the EXP tables were changed so that levels wouldn't take HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of EXP by the time you get to Ruoze, and wouldn't take HUNDREDS of battle in Mona, to be a high enough level to take on your special bosses that have a tendency to be cheap fuckers, then, you know, I wouldn't have a single damned problem with Psychostorm only hitting about 50% of the enemies, or Ice only being able to hit 1 big enemy at a time. The next goal you should have to make the game as impossibly fucking grindy as possible is to nerf nuke, pearl, and white. Then, we wouldn't have to worry about being able to, GASP, kill enemies in two hits in Mona and ToTE!!! Wait, Jumin can't even two-hit a Fire Dragon in ToTE, can he? |
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Post by Taterz on May 7, 2009 10:02:32 GMT -6
except lit is only capable of hitting a maximum of 8 enemies, and fire is capable of hitting 9 enemies. ice could hit 25 enemies, do you really think that is fair?
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Post by Divusmors on May 7, 2009 10:38:48 GMT -6
3x3 area attacks. (HAHAHAHA DIVUS YOUR PUREE SUCKS ASS NOW) <-- That too, but mainly, I wanted to point out this makes Ice a complete failure now. So, make Ice a 4x4, at least. Puree, too, so Reap doesn't whine about phailing and having to use Divide now. Why thank you, Realis. This tells me I've cornered you to the point that you couldn't even make a comeback out of until this nerf. As for the rest of you, this isn't that bad, honestly. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. Believe it or not, but it was always intended to change 5x5 moves BACK TO THEIR ORIGINAL area, 3x3. You may be better off suggesting to Kija other things than to just say how this is. You might have a higher chance of getting something better out of a compromise than just whining And how would a 4x4 area work, realis? far-front-left front-left front-right far-front-right Using this kind of pattern, would the target square be within the front left or front right pattern? What above it's vertical position? Would it just be randomly selected? Have you even thought of how it could work before I even asked this question?  |
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Post by Sur Realis on May 7, 2009 11:54:14 GMT -6
3x3 area attacks. (HAHAHAHA DIVUS YOUR PUREE SUCKS ASS NOW) <-- That too, but mainly, I wanted to point out this makes Ice a complete failure now. So, make Ice a 4x4, at least. Puree, too, so Reap doesn't whine about phailing and having to use Divide now. Why thank you, Realis. This tells me I've cornered you to the point that you couldn't even make a comeback out of until this nerf. As for the rest of you, this isn't that bad, honestly. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. Believe it or not, but it was always intended to change 5x5 moves BACK TO THEIR ORIGINAL area, 3x3. You may be better off suggesting to Kija other things than to just say how this is. You might have a higher chance of getting something better out of a compromise than just whining And how would a 4x4 area work, realis? far-front-left front-left front-right far-front-right Using this kind of pattern, would the target square be within the front left or front right pattern? What above it's vertical position? Would it just be randomly selected? Have you even thought of how it could work before I even asked this question? Yes, I did. |
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Post by Jumin on May 8, 2009 4:53:57 GMT -6
i can kill FD with a Nuke+ice3.
my nuke does 3500-3800.
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Post by Sur Realis on May 8, 2009 5:48:44 GMT -6
i can kill FD with a Nuke+ice3. my nuke does 3500-3800. Would you cry if Kija said 'NO U CANT' and nerfed Nuke so you couldn't? Why thank you, Realis. This tells me I've cornered you to the point that you couldn't even make a comeback out of until this nerf. As for the rest of you, this isn't that bad, honestly. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. Believe it or not, but it was always intended to change 5x5 moves BACK TO THEIR ORIGINAL area, 3x3. You may be better off suggesting to Kija other things than to just say how this is. You might have a higher chance of getting something better out of a compromise than just whining And how would a 4x4 area work, realis? far-front-left front-left front-right far-front-right Using this kind of pattern, would the target square be within the front left or front right pattern? What above it's vertical position? Would it just be randomly selected? Have you even thought of how it could work before I even asked this question? Yes, I did. Ok, now I seriously did. And the solution is simple. Actually I came up with this before but figured Kija wouldn't like it.
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
x x x x x
That is the old Ice area.
o o o o o
o x x x o
o x x x o
o x x x o
o o o o o
This is the new Ice area.
o o x o o
o x x x o
x x x x x
o x x x o
o o x o o
That's my idea for an Ice area. It remains fairly nerfed - 9 squares are still untouched by the area from before, though it still allows the ability to, you know, STRATEGIZE against large enemies. It would allow a maximum of 5 large enemies (rather than the max max either way, 8), which, lets be honest, is really only going to happen at Kaug. It still fucks over everyone, though, because the large enemies basically have to be positioned so that they are basically humping (dry or otherwise) to be hit by Ice. It also doesn't hurt so much when you put a large at the center because they suck up three squares that could have been enemies. Also: Yeah, you had me cornered in the debate, but I wasn't trying to win it anymore with this post. I was partly joking and partly reminding Kija that Ice isn't the only thing fucked over by this decision. |
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Post by Speedy mc Speedy, Infamous DG2 on May 8, 2009 6:51:09 GMT -6
Or we could just, you know, stick to the 3x3 areas and force players to further rely on strategy. It's not like the end of the world, it just means we all need to stop relying on the once huge area of ice, and plan our attacks out.
Also, on the topic of grinding, I really don't care. I will diligently spend hours beating the crap out of wolves, orgres and forest imps to get to level 12 14. This game is, in fact, NOT a grindfest in my opinion. You all have a perfect setting to Roleplay, you know that? And if you don't want to, just train at a steady pace and have fun. Since, you know, that's what the game is about.
[shadow=red,left,300]I'M COMING FOR YOU, PINK OGRE THING[/shadow]
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Post by Sur Realis on May 8, 2009 8:59:20 GMT -6
Or we could just, you know, stick to the 3x3 areas and force players to further rely on strategy. It's not like the end of the world, it just means we all need to stop relying on the once huge area of ice, and plan our attacks out. Also, on the topic of grinding, I really don't care. I will diligently spend hours beating the crap out of wolves, orgres and forest imps to get to level 12 14. This game is, in fact, NOT a grindfest in my opinion. You all have a perfect setting to Roleplay, you know that? And if you don't want to, just train at a steady pace and have fun. Since, you know, that's what the game is about. [shadow=red,left,300]I'M COMING FOR YOU, PINK OGRE THING[/shadow] No. Kija is half-assing things, which is bullshit. The game is meant to be that we AREN'T grinding on enemies, but instead are being grinded on by enemies. We are supposed to be the hunted, not we spending a month killing Dragons and Titans for a single fucking Level up. I DO NOT disagree with 3x3 areas.What I disagree with is 3x3 areas WHILE THE GAME REMAINS GRINDY. And it is grindy. Want me prove how grindy it is? |
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Post by Kain on May 8, 2009 13:14:42 GMT -6
PS and DF had only two real uses: easy grinding for newbies and the heal exploit; the latter would have been removed anyway. I also wanted to remove PS and DF entirely, but Soren bawwwwed.
On the subject of enemies not lining up for Fire/Lit areas: I think there's always been a decent chance of at least a few enemies lining up for these areas, but they were ignored most of the time because anyone with a 5x5 would go LOL 5X5 and that would be the end of that, as 99% of the time they were the better option. Indeed, I've noticed vertical/horizontal areas more now that we don't have 25-hit squares to fall back on.
On the subject of grinding: personally, I think we should get started on adding some sidequests to the game to break up the monotony of level-grinding.
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Post by Taterz on May 8, 2009 20:36:26 GMT -6
hahaahaha this game not grindy. hahahahahahhahaahahhahahah
hold on.
hahahahahahahahahahhahaahahhahahahahaha
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Post by Sur Realis on May 9, 2009 6:35:57 GMT -6
hahaahaha this game not grindy. hahahahahahhahaahahhahahah hold on. hahahahahahahahahahhahaahahhahahahahaha I'm sorry. People don't look for Kreland parties, they look for Cath parties. People don't look for DM parties, they look for CB parties. People don't look for Skyre parties, they look for Ruoze parties. People don't look for IC parties, they look for Mona parties. Then you have the Titans/ToTE parties thing. People congregate around enemies that give the most EXP. There is no point training anywhere else, because even fighting the enemies that give the most EXP (Ballistic Tigers, Crevice Beasts, Gigasaurs, Ice/Zomb Dragons) there are still many hours put into just flat out grinding. There is no quest, there is no ulterior motive except for gaining another level from killing more enemies, which is the definition of grinding by nature. And this grind actually goes against the game's storyline, but it's not like anyone gives a shit about Darlow's history. except lit is only capable of hitting a maximum of 8 enemies, and fire is capable of hitting 9 enemies. ice could hit 25 enemies, do you really think that is fair? I'm sorry, I missed this one, I'll reply to it now. Lit has the added benefit of being the most perfectly all-around spell in the game. So few enemies resist it, and so few enemies are weak to it, which makes it THE element of choice for BLMs/RMs. Fire and Ice both have ENTIRE AREAS of enemies that either flat out are unaffected by it or resist it. Fire has the added benefit of the fact that the third tier actually sees some use. Fire 3 is gained at Level 31 for Black Mages, which is usually around the time they are grinding it up in Mona. You know, where enemies, like, resist Ice? The Black Mages that do not yet have Nuke can easily toss out a Fire 3 and still do valuable damage - eventually doing around 1k damage to Ice Dragons by the time they get Nuke, which would do about 2k to said Dragon. While Ice 3 still has application, in the Pits of Pain, it's not nearly so much as Fire 3, and can, sometimes, easily be replaced with Lit 3 anyway. It's all about Nuke in PoP; unless you are so overleveled that using a second Nuke would waste thousands of damage like Jumin, then most of the time a Black Mage, near the ToTE hole, will be tossing out Nukes, or if necessary using Barrier/Boost 3. The point still remains at Titans, though Nuke isn't so prevalent as Stop and Rub is, and this is especially where, if any application of Ice 3 can come into play, then it is easily replaced by Lit 3 or even Fire 3. Edit: Also, if a 5x5 area of immense damage is going to be used, then it's a lot more effective to have a Boost 3'd Knight use Puree. Too bad they can only hit 9 enemies now instead of 25. |
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Post by Rand on May 9, 2009 16:25:16 GMT -6
*Just wants to insert that he certainly gave a damn about Darlow's history and hopes someone paid attention when he yammered on about how to expand it before*
Though I do feel you have solid points, Shane. I can remember when people actually asked for parties for Kreland, or Skyre. Then I turned old enough to drink. And I'm 24 now.
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Post by Taterz on May 9, 2009 18:25:42 GMT -6
you missed it, i was being sarcastic. i know this game is grindy, seriously.
the problem with lit and fire is that even though they were effective for some portions, they were both heavily outclassed by ice's area of effect. there are more 5x5 areas that there are single rows/columns of 8 enemies. this isn't how it was a few years ago where big monsters lined up in the back rows. now that it's random, the line and columns are far less useful than ice's shotgun blast.
cathedral? earth elementals and mud golems dont line up very well unless in large parties. 2 ice users could take out 25 (even with the ice resistance) as opposed to 2 lit users taking out a max of 18.
CB? mountain worms go down in single fire 2 casts, so that AoE is null. from what i recall the iron guards resist pretty much everything save harm, so ice AoE is supreme here as well.
ruoze? nothing here is weak to anything, the ankylosaur types resist all but harm, so ice is still superior. gigasaurs and tyrannos also dont have a weakness
ice caves? 2 things: people either run to monastery, or are at it. ice dragons are obviously weak to fire, so fire 3 has some use here. problem is, it's single target. rarely gets lined up with multiple fire users to be effective (you'd need about 4 to get down a line of dragons). ice 3 is not resisted by the mummies, i think the vamp lords resist all types of magic. so, 4 fire users to take out a maximum of 4 maybe 5 ice dragons, or 4 ice users who can take out a large group of mummies and vampire lords? its no question as to which of these choices is better. hint: demi sucks
PoP? it's no question that ice is superior here.
everything i said here only applies to teh 3 elements, so instant kill moves are not regarded. i dont recall how much resistance dark knights or strikers have, but ice 3'ing an area can very quickly wipe them out with their small hp pool. again, this all boils down to the fact that ice 3 had the largest area and was a better choice in 90% of the situations.
if ice were to still be 5x5, the other spells would need to be bumped up to compensate for it. AoE is the most effective form of killing, and it just so happens ice was the best one (PS and DF got resisted by too many mobs "endgame" to matter) for it's mp cost.
and lol at knights using anything other than divide, those don't exist. its all anyone ever does
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Post by Rand on May 9, 2009 18:42:17 GMT -6
It truly wouldn't be hard to change the later Fire and Lightning spells. See Lightning gaining in tier as becoming more of a lightning STORM perhaps. And Fire as becoming gradually more of an expanding explosion? Lots of ways to change things if you've a mind to do so. Nerfing is only one aspect of balance.
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Post by Jumin on May 9, 2009 19:02:47 GMT -6
i would kinda cry if my nuke got nerfed  and i do also remember the days when people asked for SS parties instead of ruoze.. lol I was one of those people.. and I actually trained through IC to get to mona solo if needed >.> but about the three elements.. Can RMs and BLMs be given the option to rechoose their element? |
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Post by Sur Realis on May 9, 2009 19:54:09 GMT -6
you missed it, i was being sarcastic. i know this game is grindy, seriously. the problem with lit and fire is that even though they were effective for some portions, they were both heavily outclassed by ice's area of effect. there are more 5x5 areas that there are single rows/columns of 8 enemies. this isn't how it was a few years ago where big monsters lined up in the back rows. now that it's random, the line and columns are far less useful than ice's shotgun blast. cathedral? earth elementals and mud golems dont line up very well unless in large parties. 2 ice users could take out 25 (even with the ice resistance) as opposed to 2 lit users taking out a max of 18. CB? mountain worms go down in single fire 2 casts, so that AoE is null. from what i recall the iron guards resist pretty much everything save harm, so ice AoE is supreme here as well. ruoze? nothing here is weak to anything, the ankylosaur types resist all but harm, so ice is still superior. gigasaurs and tyrannos also dont have a weakness ice caves? 2 things: people either run to monastery, or are at it. ice dragons are obviously weak to fire, so fire 3 has some use here. problem is, it's single target. rarely gets lined up with multiple fire users to be effective (you'd need about 4 to get down a line of dragons). ice 3 is not resisted by the mummies, i think the vamp lords resist all types of magic. so, 4 fire users to take out a maximum of 4 maybe 5 ice dragons, or 4 ice users who can take out a large group of mummies and vampire lords? its no question as to which of these choices is better. hint: demi sucks PoP? it's no question that ice is superior here. everything i said here only applies to teh 3 elements, so instant kill moves are not regarded. i dont recall how much resistance dark knights or strikers have, but ice 3'ing an area can very quickly wipe them out with their small hp pool. again, this all boils down to the fact that ice 3 had the largest area and was a better choice in 90% of the situations. if ice were to still be 5x5, the other spells would need to be bumped up to compensate for it. AoE is the most effective form of killing, and it just so happens ice was the best one (PS and DF got resisted by too many mobs "endgame" to matter) for it's mp cost. and lol at knights using anything other than divide, those don't exist. its all anyone ever does I couldn't have been sure. I don't know you well enough to know your cues for sarcasm. While you have some very good points, and I do have to agree with you, when limited to just the three elements, Ice outclassed the others with AoE. But I'm more trying to take in the big picture. Black Mages aren't always blasting out spells, trying to nuke enemies. If a Blue Mage isn't around, a BM sometimes needs to toss out a Boost 3, or a Barrier 3, or if the/a WM is too busy (stupid) to heal the BM when it's almost dead, a well-placed Drain comes in handy. While Ice 3 certainly is great for Mummies and Vamps at Mona, I've personally found that BMs are usually busy blasting away at the Z or Ice Dragons. In fact, on my Dragoon, I specifically focus on taking out the Mummies or Vamps instead of attacking the Dragons. Most melees tend to gravitate to taking out the annoying smalls while the Mages blast away the larges. And seriously, besides Jumin's Nuke/Ice 3 on Dragons, I have never seen Ice 3 used at ToTE. More often than not, it's Puree with Boost 3, or a Lightstorm 3. It truly wouldn't be hard to change the later Fire and Lightning spells. See Lightning gaining in tier as becoming more of a lightning STORM perhaps. And Fire as becoming gradually more of an expanding explosion? Lots of ways to change things if you've a mind to do so. Nerfing is only one aspect of balance. We're just making it a habit to beat each other to our own ideas, aren't we? |
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Post by Rand on May 10, 2009 0:02:43 GMT -6
I believe we are, mate. Harrumph. At least this time I didn't get the short end of the stick. |
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Post by Takahashi on May 10, 2009 5:48:17 GMT -6
I don't remember who brought it up, but someone had the idea for the later tiers (probably only tier 3) of damage spells to have the biggest AoE options while tier 1 and tier 2 either had only single-target (tier 1) or the current AoE on top of single-target (tier 2). So, Fire 3 would've had a three row AoE allowing for up to 24 targets on top of its single-target version, Lit 3 would have a three column AoE for up to 24 targets as well and Ice 3 would be the only ice spell with the 5x5 AoE.
Lightstorm would need a bit more adjusting than Fire, Ice and Lit. Maybe it only has two tiers instead of three with the tier 1 having power between the current tier 1 and tier 2 and a 3x3 AoE, while the tier 2 would be 5x5 with power equal to the current Lightstorm 3. The level that the new LS2 is learned at would have to be bumped up a bit to reflect its upgrade though.
As for Psychostorm and Darkfire, I'd either take them out altogether or tinker with how enemies react to their damage types at this point. From what little I remember of monster traits, there were too many resistances and immunities and not enough vulnerabilities when it came to dark and magic damage, where as ice, fire, lightning and even holy were relatively well off in terms of resistance/immunity versus vulnerability.
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Post by Rand on May 10, 2009 6:10:47 GMT -6
Yeah, Faru, that WAS a big problem of it. I remember us discussing that very problem of vulnerabilities and damage types before. I miss those chats.  It seems to me, however, that even that would not be very hard to change, really, and test. If it were necessary changes outside of the spell damage types after testing could be done a little later since that WOULD take a nice bit longer to do. Editing a slew of monsters' resistances would take a little longer of pruning and correcting than changing a few spells' damage type listings, I'd think. |
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Post by Not on May 18, 2009 9:29:38 GMT -6
I love the fact that the game is going away from storyline and going towards making grinding 3x as hard.
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=O
It seems to me, however, that even that would not be very hard to change, really, and test. If it were necessary changes outside of the spell damage types after testing could be done a little later since that WOULD take a nice bit longer to do. Editing a slew of monsters' resistances would take a little longer of pruning and correcting than changing a few spells' damage type listings, I'd think.