|
Post by Hiroshima on Feb 28, 2006 14:52:45 GMT -6
Bar3 won't cover both Magic and Physical in V8...so don't get all your panties in a bunch...
|
|
|
Post by talon on Feb 28, 2006 15:11:10 GMT -6
I always viewed magic as though it enveloped you, as if it formed around your feet and kicked up. As such, that would make it rather unavoidable..
|
|
|
Post by Takahashi on Feb 28, 2006 18:23:22 GMT -6
...that's what Dragoon Reflexes does though. It takes a hit that would've landed on a Dragoon and turns it into a miss. But Dragoon Reflexes activates randomly and it only gives you a guaranteed miss upon the actual activation. Unless I'm reading your idea incorrectly, it'd give BBs an insta-miss every time it activates, and with a 40% chance to do so, not to mention the other bonuses. I think you're misreading it. Also, Dragoon Reflexes activates 20% of the time. It's no more or less random than other percentage-based abilities (Double Strike, Advanced Double Strike, Countering). Barring a modification to the activation percentage (which is likely, were it ever considered for implementation), Hamedo would go off about twice as often as Dragoon Reflexes. Overall: - Dragoon Reflexes is an inherent with a 20% activation rate which makes the Dragoon automatically avoid damage for the one attack that caused activation. Limitation(s): The Dragoon does not get a free attack on whatever attacked them. Inferior activation rate compared to Hamedo and Retort. - Countering is an inherent with a 20% activation rate which gives the Black Belt a free attack on whatever monster caused activation. Countering activates even if the enemy misses. Limitation(s): The Black Belt does not automatically avoid the attack sent their way. Inferior activation rate, damage and accuracy compared to Retort and Hamedo. - Retort is an ability with a 100% activation rate which gives the Knight a free attack at 130% accuracy and 200% normal damage on whatever monster caused activation. Limitation(s): Costs MP and wears off after one attack, or one round if Endless Rebuttal has been learned. Retort does not trigger if the attack sent at the Knight misses (debatable as to the good/bad nature of this). The Knight does not automatically avoid the attack sent their way. - Hamedo is an ability with a 40% activation rate which makes the Black Belt automatically avoid damage for the one attack that caused activation. It gives the Black Belt a free attack at 125% accuracy and 125% damage on whatever monster caused activation. Hamedo activates even if the enemy misses. Limitation(s): Learned a very long way into the Black Belt's career; learned much later than every other skill listed (Dragoon Reflexes = level 8, Retort = level 14; level 30 if you count Endless Rebuttal alongside it, Countering = level 23, Hamedo = level 55). Less accuracy and damage than Retort. Doesn't activate as often per round compared to Retort.
|
|
|
Post by Taterz on Mar 1, 2006 2:35:08 GMT -6
so doubled activation rate, chance to dodge, do more damage, have more accuracy is all offset by the level? perhaps the fact its very easy to get a BB to 55 in a rather short amount of time.
besides, how many dragoons even stay on the ground the minute they get jump? once they also Lure, they will practically never come down, making reflexes useless. and knights, how many actually use retort on a round to round basis? its always area skills before single hitters.
honestly, hamedo just sounds like something you personally want for your blackbelt tak >_>
|
|
|
Post by U. Dye on Mar 1, 2006 7:31:14 GMT -6
Maybe it is. Can you blame him?
There's also the fact that, around ToTE, which is where this skill would be acquired, the only things that actually use physical attacks anymore are Dragons, which spend most of their time eating Nuke/Pearl/White/Divide/whatever else, so that an extra attack or two by some BB probably won't matter much. Sure, lower in the Pits, in Mag's lair, you have Death Veggies and Golden Strikers, but in the case of Veggies, any smart person will kill them first so as not to be paralyzed and end up in a DF barbeque by the Death Stares, and in the case of Strikers, they have so much defense, it'd be tough to put a dent in them. And of course, virtually everywhere outside of ToTE, by the time the skill is learned, it would be basically useless because A. things would have a hard time hitting a BB, and B. a BB could wipe them out with a normal attack or a Pummel anyway.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, Hamedo would be essentially useless, for the most part.
|
|
akuma
Investigator
Posts: 21
|
Post by akuma on Mar 1, 2006 14:19:49 GMT -6
Bar3 won't cover both Magic and Physical in V8...so don't get all your panties in a bunch... I feel so bad for blms now, because even if bar will only be able to cover magic, they will still get analed by physical attacks. And with Pop 2 monsters, hot damn, someone better prepare the caskets.
|
|
|
Post by Takahashi on Mar 1, 2006 16:49:56 GMT -6
so doubled activation rate, chance to dodge, do more damage, have more accuracy is all offset by the level? perhaps the fact its very easy to get a BB to 55 in a rather short amount of time. The number of level 55+ Black Belts can be counted on a hand or two, last I knew. Being level 55 or higher is not as rare a sight as being level 60 or higher (aside from Dye, is there anyone even at level 60?), but the list of members is still rather small compared to the size of the active playerbase. besides, how many dragoons even stay on the ground the minute they get jump? once they also Lure, they will practically never come down, making reflexes useless. and knights, how many actually use retort on a round to round basis? its always area skills before single hitters. honestly, hamedo just sounds like something you personally want for your blackbelt tak >_> I brought up those abilities because they're the closest there are in-game to what Hamedo would do, aside from Countering. I figure that having some in-game examples I could use as a means of comparison and clarification would help. Yes, DR is rarely seen in the late-game, due to how favorable the risk/reward ratio in regards to non-stop Jumping becomes. Yes, Retort is not used consistently, but there are at least situations where using it frequently during a battle might come in handy (can't say the same for staying grounded as a Dragoon once you have Free Flying and Lure). Parties with few people increase the odds of the Knight being attacked, so being able to do double damage several times in a round for 1 MP can be quite a valuable tool. The only comparable abilities would be Frenzy and Puree. Frenzy's bonus to hits translates to around 200% normal damage, if not more. Puree can attack so many targets that the penalty to damage per target isn't a big deal. So really, Retort isn't a 'use sparingly, if at all' skill, which separates it from Dragoon Reflexes. That aside, as other posters have noted, giving Black Belts an ability that would represent having mastered the martial arts and refined the art of countering is not a problem. The only problem seems to be the activation rate, which would be fixed before implementation (dropped from 40% to somewhere between 20% and 25%). As for the thinking of skills/ideas only for Black Belts: - I've thought of skills and ideas for several jobs (better spears for Dragoons, ground-based skills for Dragoons such that constant Jumping won't always be the best choice, Regen-type spells for WM and RM, hybrid status ailment spells aside from Pearl for BlM, etc). I don't play favorites class-wise when it comes to ideas and such. - My Black Belt is level 17. My personal best is level 37, which was back when I played on an almost daily basis. I won't be coming close to level 35 any time soon, never mind level 55. If I was favoring Black Belt (I'm not ), I'd have to put in an uncharacteristic amount of playing time to gain access to 'my' skill.
|
|
Manboy
Hunter
butsecks?
Posts: 124
|
Post by Manboy on Mar 1, 2006 18:30:17 GMT -6
Bar3 won't cover both Magic and Physical in V8...so don't get all your panties in a bunch... I feel so bad for blms now, because even if bar will only be able to cover magic, they will still get analed by physical attacks. And with Pop 2 monsters, hot damn, someone better prepare the caskets. Bluemages sound like they're getting screwed over in the update. Unless you guys have something special planned for them .
|
|
|
Post by U. Dye on Mar 1, 2006 19:18:40 GMT -6
Changing Barrier will at least give BMs and Blms a reason to use that handy little skill called Forcefield that they learned at... what, L.12?
|
|
|
Post by Takahashi on Mar 1, 2006 20:49:33 GMT -6
I feel so bad for blms now, because even if bar will only be able to cover magic, they will still get analed by physical attacks. And with Pop 2 monsters, hot damn, someone better prepare the caskets. Bluemages sound like they're getting screwed over in the update. Unless you guys have something special planned for them . I remember when Black and Blue Mages were supposed to take physical damage like it reduced them to giblets. Those were good days, when a solo Black/Blue Mage wasn't able to tank better than a loaded to the gills Knight. I suppose Blue Mages will have to settle for better HP growth than Black Mages, better agility growth than Black Mages, a faster levelling rate (meaning more HP and agility in less time) and more reliable healing options (undead = screwed Black Mage).
|
|
Manboy
Hunter
butsecks?
Posts: 124
|
Post by Manboy on Mar 1, 2006 21:40:30 GMT -6
I remember when Black and Blue Mages were supposed to take physical damage like it reduced them to giblets. Those were good days, when a solo Black/Blue Mage wasn't able to tank better than a loaded to the gills Knight. I suppose Blue Mages will have to settle for better HP growth than Black Mages, better agility growth than Black Mages, a faster leveling rate (meaning more HP and agility in less time) and more reliable healing options (undead = screwed Black Mage). I was thinking more spell-wise than stats. I understand that both blue and black mages aren't suppose to be able to tank so well (even if it costs a lot of time/mp to do so). Black mages are fine, they'll still do what they do best even if barrier's effect is changed, but blue mages only have so much to work with. They have status spells, a few damaging spells, and their blue magic, which has it's good and bad points, but there is only so much blue magic available. Confuse, Poison, Pearl, and even Sleep are awesome, but the other ones like Mute and Darkfire are only good for so long. Confuse, Mute, and Sleep have their problems with two people attacking the same monster, one of them kills it, the other attacks a different monster which could possibly be sleeped, confused, or muted and that attack would remove that status. Mute pretty much sucks. The status is removed when someone attacks the monster (unless it's been changed, I haven't checked in a while). The monster is prevented from casting spells, which is good since some monsters' spells are pretty strong, but later in the game some monsters' regular attacks hit just as hard or even harder than their magic. Darkfire is just average. It's single-hit attack is stronger than the other level 1, 2, 3 spells and it is also great because of it's hit-all attack (even if it does mediocre damage) since Psychostorm is the only other spell that can do that. Later in the game though, too many monsters are resistant to it or there are more imperative things the blue mage can do. But there are a few monsters that it is useful against since other elemental spells are resisted. The blue mage's healing capabilities are not very good. They are nice to have in earlier levels, but later white and red mages are just more efficient with healing. I would rather have another spell replace the healing spells blue mages have. And the rest of the blue mage's spells are copied from black mages. The buffing spells like Boost and Barrier are great, yet the other status effect spells like slow and weak are not so good. The level 2 versions of these spells are great since nobody will all the affected monsters in 1 hit (not all of the time at least), but the level 1 and 3 versions only affect 1 monster, which could end up getting killed in turn or two. They are good on strong, defensive monsters with lots of hp (which would consist of bosses and and physical/magical resistant monsters), but some monsters are resistant/immune to the effects. </end_rant>
|
|
|
Post by Kyou on Mar 1, 2006 22:39:12 GMT -6
Uh Manboy, Weak 3 and Slow 3 are essential for soloing Titans (Although I may be the only one that uses that approach) afterwards, poison them set the time for 10 seconds then go watch a movie, during the boring parts get into another battle, rinse, lather and repeat. I actually love using the weak and slow spells, nothing like crippling a monster (Or in case of the term I use at Titans "Retarding them") </End Counter Rant>
P.S. I've seen a muted monster get hit and didn't lose its muteness, Hopefully it was supposed to happen.
|
|
|
Post by Taterz on Mar 2, 2006 5:24:13 GMT -6
how come i have yet to see paralyze get put in? dont blues deserve it?
|
|
|
Post by talon on Mar 2, 2006 11:04:57 GMT -6
Stop = paralyze, confuse against a lone enemy = paralyze. It's in. >.> However, that whole barrier nerf thing is being discussed as a matter of soloing, and in the same topic mute is being discussed as partied.. Lemme tell you something all real quick. If we're going to treat barrier in a manner of solo, lets do the same for mute and confuse. I got my blue mage to cave 2 of IC at level 28 because of mute and confuse. I'd throw up a forcefield, heal, confuse, mute the confused wyrm so they are melee'ing other enemies and not hitting an ice resistance, heal, sleep, demi and hope they stayed asleep, if not then I'd confuse and heal up, or they did, I'd med, and then fire1 single for the win. Matter of fact, I pulled the same stuff on worms. Ever tried confusing a ghost and muting it so their attack can only go on attack and PARA-HIT on a worm? xD It was great. I did almost no work for those battle wins. Also, Kija is setting up a retarget system, again, so that confused, stopped, sleep, maybe muted monsters are removed from the retarget list if more than one of those monster types are still there. That is really the biggest reasons why those spells sucks, the retargetting. With that done, I would hope, and especially with some of the v8 monsters I have coded, will make even mute a very useful spell. Like on the Beholder which has access to rub and quarter.. Or dark dragons with their pearl spell. Final note to sum it up.. It's not that they're useless, it is more or less that the situation given on the random factor within the code (I.E retargetting), and some players (who quickly select their move before anyone could even say HI. >.<) that make it suck.
|
|
|
Post by Sarm on Mar 2, 2006 14:13:32 GMT -6
I'd have liked to see the Darkfire spells (kinda) moved down a bit in learning level. DarkFire 1, while situational, is still useful even when you have your LV2 element, but you can't say that for DF2/3. Since people can't party with others outside of their game completion range...the spell isn't all that useful.
DarkFire both sucks and rocks. I was thinking of having a single-target only Darkfire learned somewhat closer to the normal element of its level, but gain the ability to multitarget it at the levels they're at now. Who single-targets Darkfire 3? You already have Pearl at that point, which does more than twice DF3's damage for less than twice the cost.
I must be jinxed when it comes to Forcefield, though. Every time I used it, I'd lose the damn thing either in the same round, or the one after it.
The Ghost Mute/Confuse sounds like fun. Interesting solo tactic that I never thought of. Have you ever found a use for it in parties, though? I'd imagine crowd control with the stat spells would be needed much more, and in the later parts of the game, most monsters seem to have some level of resistance to magic. I hate relying on chance to be any use in a party.
|
|
akuma
Investigator
Posts: 21
|
Post by akuma on Mar 2, 2006 16:23:19 GMT -6
Hmm...in terms of protection magic, I consider Force Field to be the Ultimate Failure. Once you hit 1/3 of your HP, which in the later portions of the game, you undoubtedly will, your ass is grassed. Plus all those status changes sound fun but uh, when your spending half the time trying to keep yourself from getting shoved under that nice dirt comforter , it's kinda tough. Lets look at this. I seen the stats for the Dark Dragon's attack to be something like 500, or something close to that. Now since FF reduces dmg by 1/3, a Blm would take around 333 dmg per hit. Yay? FF, In my opinion, is just a way to delay the inevitable pimp hand, being laid down. It saves your ass sometimes, but I'd rather have something a bit more reliable than a half assed barrier. Oh ya, let's not forget the the mp cost is dependent on your lvl. So at later points you will be spending more mp for a shittier defense, wonderful trade off... Final Conclusion- FF fails as hard as someone throwing a rock at the floor and missing...
|
|
|
Post by talon on Mar 2, 2006 16:52:55 GMT -6
You lose FF once you're at 1/3 hp.. it reduces half damage (50%, which is 10% below barrier3 as it currently stands). Besides which, the game's more about partying. This kind of helps point at the reason to party with people.
|
|
Manboy
Hunter
butsecks?
Posts: 124
|
Post by Manboy on Mar 2, 2006 17:15:38 GMT -6
I love crippling monsters with status spells and stat-lowering spells and buffing party members, which is the original reason why I picked blue mage. Confusing monsters was always fun, especially confusing ones with strong spells or status-inflicting attacks. Mute was interesting to use on monsters that casted magic all the time (which I believe crashed the server once when I muted a fire elemental, but that is fixed ) I always wanted to see a confused enemy with spells like boost cast the spell on one of the player's party members. That would be hot lol. I'm glad a new targeting system is being worked out though. Even though you can solo with barrier, it is very time consuming. First you set up the barrier, then forcefield, then cast poison/confuse/sleep/damage spells, etc. on monsters and heal/meditate when needed. All of that together comes out to a lot of time used in the fight just to get some exp which probably would have been higher in a party. Sure, you can go solo around in some places with it, but the exp gained over time is not that great. Even if you're just trying to reach a new place, you have to take every precaution so you don't get screwed over with a crit or something, but that requires alot more time than if you were in a party.
|
|
akuma
Investigator
Posts: 21
|
Post by akuma on Mar 2, 2006 18:22:31 GMT -6
You lose FF once you're at 1/3 hp.. it reduces half damage (50%, which is 10% below barrier3 as it currently stands). Besides which, the game's more about partying. This kind of helps point at the reason to party with people. Well shit, I looked at the 1/3 part and kinda mistook it for the amount of dmg it reduces. God damn, I hate when I do things like this -_-.
|
|
|
Post by Sarm on Mar 3, 2006 14:50:29 GMT -6
The Barrier nerf still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but if it's really that bad soloability then there's nothing more to say in that regard...
...but, in my opinion, it's getting swung in the other direction. 30/15/60% magic damage only. Sure, 60% looks pretty, and I guess Barrier1 will still have a use...
If it has to be magic-only, it'd be nice if the spell did a better job at that. It doesn't do a thing for status effects or stat down magic, right? Why not impose a 30/15/60% immunity chance for them (counting Rub)?
|
|
|
Post by Kija on Mar 3, 2006 15:22:50 GMT -6
The specifics of the new barrier have not been decided yet, so "30/15/60% magic damage only" may not even be true.
|
|
|
Post by U. Dye on Mar 3, 2006 18:55:17 GMT -6
[glow=red,2,300]-= Red Mages =-[/glow]
Runic(10% MP)- For one round, the user can block spells aimed at them using their weapon, and if one of the spells is of the elements Fire, Ice, or Lit, that element gets instilled into their weapon.
Note: The MP cost here was pretty tough to think of. Maybe someone else could think of a better one, I dunno.
|
|
|
Post by Takahashi on Mar 5, 2006 0:27:17 GMT -6
The Barrier nerf still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but if it's really that bad soloability then there's nothing more to say in that regard... ...but, in my opinion, it's getting swung in the other direction. 30/15/60% magic damage only. Sure, 60% looks pretty, and I guess Barrier1 will still have a use... If it has to be magic-only, it'd be nice if the spell did a better job at that. It doesn't do a thing for status effects or stat down magic, right? Why not impose a 30/15/60% immunity chance for them (counting Rub)? Because Enlightenment already trivializes the resistance inherents that the four mages get. Why make a spell that acts as a superior version of Master Resist Elements and an almost superior version of Master Resist Ailments, on top of reducing all other sources of magic damage by 60%? Even Barrier 1 would end up being a significant boost, acting as a portable Resist Elements/Ailments. Red and Blue Mages would end up practically immune to status ailments. Spells like Rub and Demi would rarely work, and affects like poison, paralysis and sleep would be negated almost 95% of the time. Black and White Mages would end up ignoring elemental damage (50% normal damage from Master Resists, halve the remainder if you are Enlightened, reduce the scraps by 60%; 90% resistance to fire, ice and lightning attacks). As for the other six classes, a spell with the potential to reduce fire/ice/lightning by 65/57.5/80% AND reduce the success rate/damage of certain status ailments by 65/57.5/80% for 15/50/45 MP would be overkill.
|
|
|
Post by Sarm on Mar 5, 2006 3:42:21 GMT -6
I forgot about enlightenment. I was thinking of where most of the game actually takes place.
Edit: Wait, back up a bit. I thought enlightenment halved magical success/damage. 15/7.5/30?
|
|
|
Post by U. Dye on Mar 5, 2006 9:49:34 GMT -6
It does. It reduces the success rate of Rub to 45%, it turns Demi into a... well, not Quarter, but more like Three-Quarters or something... well, it cuts off 25%, let's say that. And that's only if the 50% chance of failure doesn't stop it first. Same with status ailments; you'll resist poison, paralysis, and sleep a lot of the time (Hey! Where the hell is our resistance to EXP drain!?), spells like Weak and Slow will fail half the time... Fortunately, spells like Fast and Boost don't, though.
|
|
|
Post by iron on Mar 8, 2006 7:41:12 GMT -6
Just a question, well maybe more....
Do thiefs get any passive skills that do things such as increse gold or experience intake ?
If not, it would be cool if they got a to choose between geting more gold, or more experience at end of battle as a skill, (like picking ice or fire , its a one time deal and they stuck with it)
Then experience bounese could be based off the amount of party members, like 1% for each additional member (so adding upto 8% bounus)
And the money could be off the amount of enemys in a battle, maybe .5% instead of 1% per additional enemy...
just a thought, sorry if its alredy been suggested, just thought it might give a reason for theive to exist
also sorry for spelling errors
|
|
|
Post by areon on Mar 8, 2006 10:39:52 GMT -6
I think thieves have the second or third lowest exp requirements already, and thieves like Bolt who did mon runs for money had 30k stocked before making alts. I don't see a real need for these for thieves because their equipment and lvl ups are already cheaper than most other classes right?
|
|
|
Post by U. Dye on Mar 8, 2006 16:24:28 GMT -6
Yeah, that's about right... Although since they're thieves, I couldn't exactly give a very good reason why they would be unable to steal EXP, except that it'd probably piss off party members, unless the total EXP gain was unaffected.
I don't really see how that idea could be discredited in a world where, A. shit like wolves and spiders have pockets to pick, B. you can kill smoke and ghosts with your bare hands, and C. people can descend 2 miles, unprotected, into the very core of the planet and not bake alive...
|
|
|
Post by talon on Mar 8, 2006 19:38:29 GMT -6
Better yet, as gold could simply be stuck on the web backings or whatever of spiders, and in the fur of wolves... Lets put SOME logic in this.. Is experience a physical embodiment that you can pick up and run off with? Or is it something you go through by, well, living? >.> Quit being so 8-bit minded.. -.- We're ffthg, not 8-bit.. Ya damn loonies. xD
|
|
|
Post by U. Dye on Mar 8, 2006 19:46:45 GMT -6
...Gold in the fur of wolves... That is a new one... Little bastards would have to be REALLY shaggy... And for the record, I don't read 8-bit.
|
|