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Post by Sarm on Oct 22, 2005 3:15:34 GMT -6
I'ev seen what appear to be a couple of problems regarding the Fighter class and the skills they use.
WarCry starts off sounding nice, but once a Fighter learns it he becomes partially immune to Boost. Considering that WarCry is weaker than Boost (it doesn't add a +2 hit thing) and that Boost actually wears off if WarCry is activated (I'm willing to guess this would happen even if the person didn't want it) it leaves their damage capabilities a sliver lower than what they could be if they didn't have WarCry at all and let their abilities get used without it.
Chop, by itself, looked okay. It was 1 MP, but it requires WarCry to be activated. An extra 3, so that's 4 MP total, in two rounds, just to use a skill that would do up to 60% normal damage. It may not miss, but the Knight's Slash has an accuracy boost (lowering the chances of it missing) and an extra 60% damage as well, in one round, for 2 MP.
I understand that Fighters aren't supposed to rival Knights in destructive power - that's why Knights get multiple-monster attacks. The issue I see is that in large parties (where you're all but guaranteed to have at least one person with Boost) WarCry actually appears to become a handicap for the user. Apparantly Leadership may stack with it, but that's still two turns to crank out both that and WarCry, leaving the user with just enough MP to use two Chops (or 1 if the situation calls for the person to Block as well) and it still doesn't match the power of Boost3.
With this, I feel that the Fighter's WarCry ought to at least cost 2 MP and grant +2 hits like its Boost counterpart. At least with this a Fighter isn't handicapped by his skills when the rest of the party can grab a Boost spell.
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Post by Mahn on Oct 22, 2005 8:12:38 GMT -6
Painful Rage (Passive) - If the user is hit by a critical hit or mortal wound, they are automatically put into War Cry status.
1mp alone just for chop...
Although, with Warcry overwriting Boost, I think a window should pop-up and the player can choose whether or not to overwrite Boost when Painful Rage activates..
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Post by U. Dye on Oct 22, 2005 8:53:41 GMT -6
I understand that Fighters aren't supposed to rival Knights in destructive power Not trying to change the subject here, but I'd like to know why Fighters and Knights are always being compared to one another, knowing that what I just quoted is the case... Well, since the two are being compared, guess I'll follow suit... Chop, by itself, looked okay. It was 1 MP, but it requires WarCry to be activated. An extra 3, so that's 4 MP total, in two rounds, just to use a skill that would do up to 60% normal damage. It may not miss, but the Knight's Slash has an accuracy boost (lowering the chances of it missing) and an extra 60% damage as well, in one round, for 2 MP. Fighters get, what, 15 MP? That's 3 MP for Warcry, then they have 12 MP left for Chopping (and, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Fighter can still attack or use Chop the same round they use Warcry). 12 Chops with a damage boost equal to that of Slash. Fighters are getting the better end of the deal in terms of numbers, because even at max MP, Knights only get 6 Slashes. Plus, after the Fighter's all Chopped out, Warcry continues to provide a damage boost, whereas Knights only get one if A. the Fighter wasted 5 Chops for Leadership, or B. a mage Boosted him. Now, granted, I agree that Warcry overwriting Boost sucks ass, but you're only thinking in terms of large parties. How about small ones where no one has Boost? Warcry suddenly isn't a handicap anymore, and the Fighter may wind up becoming a huge damage-dealer. And trust me, I know this from experience: it's easier to get and maintain a small party than it is to get and maintain a large one. Just ask Kain; on numerous occasions, we'd be training at ToTE with about 3-4 other people, and they'd suddenly all run off on us, usually close to, if not at, the same time, leaving us with a 3-man party. The point of this is, more than likely, the Fighter is going to spend more time in a small party where Boost isn't present than he will in a large party with a Booster(who, in my experience, usually don't Boost unless asked).
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Post by Sarm on Oct 22, 2005 10:27:04 GMT -6
No, they do not get 15 MP. They only get 11, which I took into consideration with my post (you can add them together from what I wrote down). And no, they cannot Chop in the same turn as WarCry either. If they did, why would I have mentioned taking two turns to put it out?
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Post by U. Dye on Oct 22, 2005 10:33:17 GMT -6
Next time I party with a Fighter I'll be sure to look at this shit. Now you went and got me curious.
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Post by Sarm on Oct 22, 2005 10:38:54 GMT -6
I'm not arguing that the Fighter class is actually BAD or anything. On paper, their skills do look nice. It's just that the MP cost for their required skill (WarCry) to use the others is a bit of a drain, and while two of them will offer it for free, they generally revolve around getting hurt badly.
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Post by U. Dye on Oct 22, 2005 13:39:13 GMT -6
and while two of them will offer it for free, they generally revolve around getting hurt badly. I guess it really depends on what is critting you. If it's a Dragon, then yeah, assrape, but if it's just something like a Fire Elemental, you're barely getting scratched. The damage those things cause is so minor that most people ignore it.
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Post by talon on Oct 22, 2005 18:13:35 GMT -6
To sarm's earlier post about fighters and warcry.. You all realize I have yet to see a damn person compare any class to any other unboosted? Boost, boost boost.. I swear you all expect boosts to stack to the power of infinity or something. No offense to all those who've complained, and especially not to Sarm. A good guy he is, I mean no harm. >.> Also, fighters are more of a defensive melee, whereas knights are more offensive. The knights retain the power hits like puree, defonce, dice, frenzy, and divide. Fighters, however, get the defensive end of the stick. Hp, painful rage, rampage, block.. You all get the point. It's not to sound mean, or anything of the sort, nor am I trying to say that all fighters should play defensive or whatever. But, in terms of comparing, how I read it myself is like trying to compare an rm to a wm in terms of healing. RMs are not built to be able to heal whatever the problem is, nor are fighters meant to take out everything that exists to kill us. If you'd like us to look more into a class, then by all, means please let us know, and why you would like to. But, really, Must all of the questions to look into a class revolve around comparing them to another? Anyways.. those are just my thoughts on class comparing and asking for rebalancing.. Sorry to waste everyone's time. xD
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Post by Kain on Oct 22, 2005 19:05:01 GMT -6
I think that the Fighter's melee capabilities are okay, for the most part (though the MP requirements do sound a bit steep). What they really need is more abilities that take advantage of what they are: big ol' marshmellows. Most of the abilities for Fighters that get suggested are (like with all other melees) "MORE DAMAGE LOL" even when it doesn't really make sense. It's already been said, but Fighters aren't made for dealing out lots of damage (though I think the Warcry thing should be changed); they're built for taking it.
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Post by Kyou on Oct 22, 2005 19:56:00 GMT -6
Also Sarm, you don't take into account that most people who actually get a fighter to PoP *others have quit from frustration* are generally "HP LOL MORE!!!" and don't go pure str, *I went Str/Dex cuz you know.... axes are heavy* also a smart Fighter would use Block*if defensive* or leadership *if offensive like me* first round to give Painful Rage a chance to kick in thus eliminating the "OMG 3 MP? R U SHITTING ME!!" stuff . They also get more then 11mp
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Post by Kija on Oct 22, 2005 20:16:50 GMT -6
Besides the change to Warcry, there are already plans for further changes and additions to the class for version eight. I believe that the changes will make the class better and more balanced compared to the others.
We will be glad to continue to hear any suggestions that can be included in the new version as well.
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Post by Rapta111 on Oct 22, 2005 20:22:33 GMT -6
What? Fighters are "fine" the way they are right now? You have got to be kidding me. Anyways, here's some actual facts to back up the Fighter's current "condition". Here's how it works out: 1st turn: Leadership (6 MP) 2nd turn: War Cry (3 MP) 3rd turn: Lunge (3 MP) That's the outlined MP usage for the fighters. So... 3 turns, and 0 MP, with the first two turns used purely for boosting their own damage, plus a small attack on the side. The Fighter's melee capabilities are nowhere near the abilities of other classes, except maybe the Thief, but most thieves tend to use Bloody Murder anyways. One point which I found particularly ignorant, was this: the Fighter is going to spend more time in a small party where Boost isn't present than he will in a large party with a Booster(who, in my experience, usually don't Boost unless asked). So you're saying that Fighters are better off not being in large parties at all, even though the focus of the game is turned TOWARDS partying? Fighters get, what, 15 MP? That's 3 MP for Warcry, then they have 12 MP left for Chopping Fighters get at max, either 12 or 13 MP. 3 MP is a big difference. And plus, what you said doesn't include basically the "ultimate" ability of the Fighter, Leadership, which costs a whopping 6 MP (Look at above calculation). And Chop isn't exactly the best of skills. Dragoons get a single MP skill, which gives +75% damage (instead of the pathetic +30% from Chop), Thieves get Backstab, which deals double damage (critical), Knights get Retort, which allows them to attack multiple times at Double damage, and Blackbelts, hell, Pummel owns. And what? A pure STR Fighter would still struggle to deal over 1k in damage (with Chop), with both Leadership and War Cry active.
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Post by Kain on Oct 22, 2005 20:55:32 GMT -6
Fighters get at max, either 12 or 13 MP. 3 MP is a big difference. And plus, what you said doesn't include basically the "ultimate" ability of the Fighter, Leadership, which costs a whopping 6 MP (Look at above calculation). And Chop isn't exactly the best of skills. Dragoons get a single MP skill, which gives +75% damage (instead of the pathetic +30% from Chop), Thieves get Backstab, which deals double damage (critical), Knights get Retort, which allows them to attack multiple times at Double damage, and Blackbelts, hell, Pummel owns. And what? A pure STR Fighter would still struggle to deal over 1k in damage (with Chop), with both Leadership and War Cry active. Thing is, Rapta, comparisons between classes are pointless, as they are all designed to specialize in different things. As I said before, Fighters are basically meatshields that can do decent melee; enough to survive (as far as I'm concerned, their actual damage is fine, seeing as how they weren't designed to obliterate everything on the field). They need more abilities that take advantage of their (for lack of a better term) marshmellow-ness, not doing more damage.
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Post by Kyou on Oct 22, 2005 20:57:14 GMT -6
*Cough* I'm less then 50% str, and with both stacked I do about 1.5k damage non mortal chop, plus chop gets no weak hits added niceness.
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Post by Rapta111 on Oct 22, 2005 21:19:15 GMT -6
Comparison to classes are needed in this game, especially in terms of issues such as Balance between classes. Figher HP isn't even much of an advantage anymore in the TotE. Fighters and Dragoons of the same level get a mere 100 HP difference between them. Not much of a meatshield there, right? And block is pretty useless once classes use Barrier spells.
But anyways, that's not the point here. Fighters need to be improved in general, even if not in Damage terms, but in some way. Fighters are just too weak right now.
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Post by Hiroshima on Oct 23, 2005 10:23:20 GMT -6
1) my fighter, pure HP, most HP than any other person HP - 1358 2)he is not useless at all, he could take a boosted critical from Geyzer, and now at ToTE he is wuite good 2)Kija said, changes are already planned, trust me, me and Mahn even talked about it too 3)yea, barrier3/Boost3 have become the most whored spells in the game, BUT Magora will have soemthing to bypass Barrier3 (hopefully) as well, her amazing defense makes Boost3 near pointless. 4) the reason Fighters get...12 HP naturally per level is so that when they DO use block the have HP/Armour/(possibly high Vit) and maybe a shield/barrier spell to protect them from just about anything. 5)yes, fighters seem a little out-of-balance, hence the changes 6)yea, thats about all i got
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Post by Kain on Oct 24, 2005 22:15:58 GMT -6
Comparison to classes are needed in this game, especially in terms of issues such as Balance between classes. Figher HP isn't even much of an advantage anymore in the TotE. Fighters and Dragoons of the same level get a mere 100 HP difference between them. Not much of a meatshield there, right? And block is pretty useless once classes use Barrier spells. But anyways, that's not the point here. Fighters need to be improved in general, even if not in Damage terms, but in some way. Fighters are just too weak right now. First off, I never said Fighters were perfect; far from it. But increasing their damage isn't the way to make them more useful and unique among other melees. Comparisons between classes are, for the most part, pointless, as they're designed for different things (exceptions being when one class is so similar to another that one's unique traits aren't being fully shown). I understand what you mean about Fighter HP, but it is pretty high and could be further taken advantage of with some abilities. Perhaps an advanced Block that lets the Fighter Block in the Defend/Rest stance (i.e. physical damage decreased by *whatever*%), an advanced Block that let them Block magic, an ability that would let the Fighter select a target and Block said target's next attack, no matter who the original target was, or a counterattack ability for successful Blocks. As for Barrier, you already know what I think about it from the Suggestions thread.
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Post by Kija on Oct 24, 2005 22:23:40 GMT -6
One of the new skills for the Fighter is going to be: Thick Blood. I am going to reveal anymore information about it as the exact details of it are still in the balancing phases but feel free to give your thoughts on it. There are others as well to help make the class more balanced and unique.
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Rowan
Explorer
LOLFANG-TAN
Posts: 65
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Post by Rowan on Oct 24, 2005 23:17:55 GMT -6
I'm glad fighters are finally going to be upgraded, changed, modified or whatever. It really seems that no one ever notices them when others complain about their class not doing so and so. Dragoons wanting area attack and Red mages wanting ultimate spells etc. It just seemed that fighters kind of got the short end of the stick, and there really aren't that many fighters out there and the ones that do reach high levels are probly someones alt, but then again alt isnt exactly a very valid term what with people getting multiple classes to TOTE. What I'm getting at is yes people complain about damage because they see what they're doing, the mp cost they're paying for it, then they see the Knight a slot above them boost 3'd frenzying or a Dragoon Diving on an unsuspecting monster. Earlier it was mentioned fighters are more of the defensive melee'ers because of their hp, well I personally consider knights to be more defensive in that they usually wear the best armor, granted fighters get just as good maybe a little short but most of the time I see fighters getting hit harder than Knights. When first playing this game I was bit surprised that it was fighters that got block and not knights, I had attributed knights to being more of the defensive class and fighters more of the berserker kill everything before my hp runs out. Now way back before skills knights were pretty big defense monsters but were also incredibly slow with fighters usually being a little more nimble. Sorry it just seemed kind of like a role reversal to me but the game has taken a big change and things like that are bound to happen. I played a fighter for a while and the reason I don't really want to right now is that they seem limited compared to other classes. Yes compared to other classes becuase this is an online game involving other people and comparisons and balance are needed for it. We get 2 attack skills to choose from when it comes our turn. Yes there is some strategy with leadership first turn and hope you get painful rage without having to waste 3 mp or say your hp gets demolished and you get in a rampage before you're either healed or life'd or lose. However having to choose from 2 different modes of attack for hours on hours of gameplay gets a little repetitive, yes there are other things like block but I'm talking about combat. Knights have been stated to be more of the offensive which is why they have a wide array of skills and maybe they will use the same skill a multitude of times like retort, puree, or divide but in the very least they have options to choose from and to improvise for which the situation dictates. What do the fighters get single hit abilities, damage absorbing and party protection. The fighter skills is Wartactics and if the fighter is to remain true to this then he should really have more skills involving strategy, things like leadership are perfect for this. The problem lying within is that the 2 skills we fighters use are already very good. 1mp for a hit that never misses and adds on an additional percentage of damage, and one for 3 mp that instantly criticals an enemy. If there were going to be more skills that involve MORE DAMAGE PLZ KTHXBAI its rather hard to come up with them that they either have to surpass the ones already ingame without throwing the rest of game out of balance, or they have to have some kind of secondary ability like causing a status effect which seems to be the current trend in the skills section lately.
I'd like to apologize for the poor formatting of this rant, but there is nothing more than I would like to do than to voice my opinions on the current status of fighters. Looking forward to the proposed changes in upcoming versions.
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Post by U. Dye on Oct 25, 2005 7:02:38 GMT -6
Knight a slot above them boost 3'd frenzying or a Dragoon Diving on an unsuspecting monster. ...Knights use Slash and Goons use Crush. >_> *gets shot* In all seriousness, you do have the option of NOT using Warcry and getting a Boost3 like the rest of us. Sure, you won't be able to use your techs, but either way you're gonna cause some damage. As for Painful Rage... Well, don't Block anyone, and Fast3 should help your evasion. Earlier it was mentioned fighters are more of the defensive melee'ers because of their hp, well I personally consider knights to be more defensive in that they usually wear the best armor, granted fighters get just as good maybe a little short but most of the time I see fighters getting hit harder than Knights. And a lot of the time, I see Fighters hitting harder than Knights. When first playing this game I was bit surprised that it was fighters that got block and not knights, I had attributed knights to being more of the defensive class and fighters more of the berserker kill everything before my hp runs out. I'm NOT alone... Wow... Now way back before skills knights were pretty big defense monsters but were also incredibly slow with fighters usually being a little more nimble. Sorry it just seemed kind of like a role reversal to me but the game has taken a big change and things like that are bound to happen. Would you RATHER be a slow-ass? We get 2 attack skills to choose from when it comes our turn. Be happy you get any. Yes there is some strategy with leadership first turn and hope you get painful rage without having to waste 3 mp or say your hp gets demolished and you get in a rampage before you're either healed or life'd or lose. See that, now? Fighters can get an attack boost just by being crited(whether it be by a Dragon or a Fire Elem). Plus, they use their ultimate attack TWICE just by falling below 30% HP. Does that not sound pretty berserker-like to you? It does to me. However having to choose from 2 different modes of attack for hours on hours of gameplay gets a little repetitive, yes there are other things like block but I'm talking about combat. Don't tell ME about repetition. I have over 300mil EXP, most of which was gained RIGHT outside ToTE 100k at a time. THAT, my friend, is repetition. Knights have been stated to be more of the offensive which is why they have a wide array of skills and maybe they will use the same skill a multitude of times like retort, puree, or divide but in the very least they have options to choose from and to improvise for which the situation dictates. Too bad these area attacks tend to miss half the targets unless the Knight gets a Fast3... What do the fighters get single hit abilities, damage absorbing and party protection. The fighter skills is Wartactics and if the fighter is to remain true to this then he should really have more skills involving strategy, things like leadership are perfect for this. That might be your offensive problem. By the time you use Leadership, Warcry, and Block someone, you have 2-3 MP left to play with. If Knights and Goons are such powerhouses as it is, why don't you forget Leadership, just jump onto the offensive, and make yourself known? Besides, half the time the Knights are Boost3'ed by the time they're done using Divide anyway. The problem lying within is that the 2 skills we fighters use are already very good. 1mp for a hit that never misses and adds on an additional percentage of damage, and one for 3 mp that instantly criticals an enemy. I fail to see how this is a problem. If there were going to be more skills that involve MORE DAMAGE PLZ KTHXBAI its rather hard to come up with them that they either have to surpass the ones already ingame without throwing the rest of game out of balance Then don't surpass them. Makes something that's lesser but useful. Maybe something that doesn't require the Fighter to get pissed off and scream (which, BTW, sounds a lot like a little kid having a tantrum, minus the armor and huge axe). or they have to have some kind of secondary ability like causing a status effect which seems to be the current trend in the skills section lately. Perhaps something that gives the enemy Lock1 status or something, since you're so pissed that Fighters can't do good damage without Chop or Lunge. There, I'm done with this one. I apologize for the length and the huge number of quotes. >_>
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Rowan
Explorer
LOLFANG-TAN
Posts: 65
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Post by Rowan on Oct 25, 2005 12:13:24 GMT -6
If I remember correctly Knights and fighters both get +2 to agi so its really not big of a difference and compared to mages we are "slow asses", both classes. But hey it could always be worse, we could be getting 1.
About the repetition and skills that don't hit very well, my point is that fighters are not very versatile, yes you've gained countless experience with your main as a knight with multiple skills. Sure it may not hit but at least you have it and the chance of it hitting.
The problem with having only 2 skills and not being able to generate a new one without it being too overbalanced is for say people like me who want a new skill. Having a new one will most likely not surpass damage in either of those 2 and just be some other kind of random effect, I don't have a problem with that unfortunately some of the suggestions so far fail to compare to the 2 already great skills we have. All the more encouragement to think outside the box and find new skills that will fit in with the old.
Finally I apologize if it came off that way but it was not meant to be screaming about our damage or whining or whatever else You took it as and I'm not pissed about fighters not doing damage. If anything I'm hoping something gets changed like other classes have benefitted from.
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Post by U. Dye on Oct 25, 2005 21:24:48 GMT -6
I apologize too. I was in a bit of a sarcastic mood when I posted that, and I probly could afford not to sound like such a shit anymore.
Look on the bright side. Kija has said that Fighters will be getting a new ability. He told me, too, that Knights will get no changes(or none are planned), not even more MP. While this is good in the sense that no nerfs are planned*coughPureecough*, it also means that, aside from stats, I'm as powerful as I'm gonna get.
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Post by Rapta111 on Oct 25, 2005 21:27:20 GMT -6
Fighter damage with the improved Warcry seems to be fine now, so let's get off the issue of that. And Kain, you seem to be confused with what I meant by damage. I meant that the Fighter's current MP usage, does not allow them to be able to fully utilize their skills, and I never said anything about them not doing enough damage, merely comparing their past damage results with that of other classes. Now, Fighters can hit somewhat well, so none of that is needed. All I said was that fighters needed to be improved/changed, and Hiro has stated that. But on the topic of fighters, here's just a quick list of ideas that I have thought of, which could help the class. Not all necessarily need to be placed in, as it could (probably will) result in the class to be overpowering: -Improved Vitality gains per level (+3) to provide better "meatshield" ability. -Increased defense/reduced damage when blocking -Leadership reduced to 4 or 5 MP usage cost -Lunge reduced to 2 MP -An "absorb" skill (chance to activate) to absorb a fraction of damage taken into HP Food for thought.
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