The SP system.

[Mettool]

I bought this up the other night, and it got a lot of positive feedback.

Basically, for Ver 8, Melee classes would have their MP renamed to "SP". In other words, Knights, Dragoons, BlackBelts Thieves, and Fighters would have SP. BM, WM, and BLUM would have MP.

But where does that leave Rangers and Red Mages?

Simple. For starters, Rangers would be stripped of all magical aspects, including Meditate. Can you seriously name five Rangers that use magic on a regular basis after getting Teh Beevar? Ranger Calls would use SP instead. But what about Life 1? Of course! We'd give Rangers their own variation of a life spell, that would use 4 or 5 SP.

Red Mages would get both MP and SP. MP for Spells, and SP for Melee. Meditate would also restore 1 SP per use.

And that's the SP system. And I think it could work. What do you think?

[U. Dye]

Mett, I thought we were past this...

Not "SP", "TP"! "T frickin' P", man! SP just sounds too... Legend of Dragoon-ish.

[Mettool]

Well it could be PP like Earthbound.

Or FP like Mario RPG's

And I think one RPG used CP...

[Mahn]

It could be MP too...like in that one game...you know...

[U. Dye]

That one game... Oh, you mean THAT one! Yeah! Took me a second to figure out which one you meant, Mahn. That fat guy dancing around in your sig just distracted the hell out of me.

[Taterz]

what would be the point of putting in SP again? i would have to disagree with this from a rangers point of view.

reason why we wont cast spells later on ingame? its merely due to the fact that we got whitemages handy to handle the curing and life duties. early on in the IC days, i found i was being healer more often than not (which pissed me off, cause i hate healing with gimpy magic). sp would just complicate it further, because calls already take % of our mp. why introduce a new system when the current one works?

oh, and stripping rangers of all magic just throws them into the pure melee category, which defeats the purpose of actually being a ranger (hybrid melee/mage focusing on melee)

oh and another thing, how many rangers would you see as pure melee if i hadnt actually got ranger so high? to be honest, i only saw rangers appear when i was in my 40s/50s. if i went pure mage and made it work, what would you being saying regarding SP then? that we should be stripped of all calls? i think not

[Caoineag]

reason why we wont cast spells later on ingame? its merely due to the fact that we got whitemages handy to handle the curing and life duties. early on in the IC days, i found i was being healer more often than not (which pissed me off, cause i hate healing with gimpy magic).

Eh... as I understood the suggestion, rangers would probably keep their recovery abilities (only life was explicitly stated, but there's a reasonable implication that the related cure branch would be represented).

sp would just complicate it further, because calls already take % of our mp.

Really? Changing it to SP would probably allow a fixed value for transformations, since your maximum point-pool would be well-defined and your ability to recover would be restricted. Having fixed values for everything and smaller numbers overall... seems like it'd simplify things to me.

why introduce a new system when the current one works?

For a given value of "works", that argument applies to anything... why not leave off at version 4?

oh, and stripping rangers of all magic just throws them into the pure melee category, which defeats the purpose of actually being a ranger (hybrid melee/mage focusing on melee)

I don't really think the defining purpose of rangers is to fill a gap in the 'magic-to-mêlée' spectrum. What makes them unique, and the main reason people play rangers, is their transformations.

oh and another thing, how many rangers would you see as pure melee if i hadnt actually got ranger so high? to be honest, i only saw rangers appear when i was in my 40s/50s. if i went pure mage and made it work, what would you being saying regarding SP then? that we should be stripped of all calls? i think not

In fairness, I don't really keep up with this game's social scene/metagame that much, but don't you think that's a little egotistical?

The popularity of various classes and builds will obviously fluctuate throughout the life of the game, and while extant powerful characters are definitely influential in trend-setting, to suppose that other players are incapable of their own reasoned decisions is asinine.

It isn't exactly rocket-science. The strongest spells a ranger possesses are tier-2, which have a magnitude of roughly twice their willpower. The strongest mêlée ability rangers possess not only increases their overall damage to a whopping 250%, but does the same to their ability to withstand damage (i.e., HP), with a nice agility boost as gravy. Since the two abilities are mutually exclusive (that is, you can't cast spells while transformed, and you have to spend a turn changing to and from), a 'balanced' stat build isn't particularly advantageous.

I doubt it took your example for people to realize that the ranger class favors physical development over magical.

[U. Dye]

For a given value of "works", that argument applies to anything... why not leave off at version 4?

First off, there was no way I was gonna quote that whole post and delete everything except the line above. That would be stupid.

Secondly, sure, in V4 things may have worked, but they work better now than they did then. (I never got to see V4, but I've heard enough to know that it kinda sucked.)

[Caoineag]

Yes, that would be a waste of effort. It's worth pointing out that you can use the quote tag without clicking on the 'quote' icon in the thread. It's not that much more trouble than using the italics tag, which you obviously have the hang of.

Anyway. I was hoping it'd be obvious that I wasn't actually supporting a devolution to version 4; rather the opposite.

I'm kind of confused as to why you posted, and what you're trying to say. Sorry.

[Jumin]

how much mp do call spells take right now? and doesn't meditate help the rangers be able to get back their MP for the next battle inorder to use that call spell again?

With the SP system, it seems that rangers will be defending alot more often towards the end of the battle in order to replenish their SP for the next battle.

But then... you might give rangers *alot* more SP points because they're also getting a life spell.

[U. Dye]

caoineag said:

Yes, that would be a waste of effort. It's worth pointing out that you can use the quote tag without clicking on the 'quote' icon in the thread. It's not that much more trouble than using the italics tag, which you obviously have the hang of.

Cold words, right there.

caoineag said:

Anyway. I was hoping it'd be obvious that I wasn't actually supporting a devolution to version 4; rather the opposite.

I'm kind of confused as to why you posted, and what you're trying to say. Sorry.

Basically what I was trying to say was, as you pointed out, the way things worked in V4... well... worked. But they work BETTER in these later versions; melee types have techs now, mages have area spells... I think it'd be best to sum it up with the old cliche, "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

jumin said:

how much mp do call spells take right now? and doesn't meditate help the rangers be able to get back their MP for the next battle inorder to use that call spell again?

I believe Fox takes 10% of the Ranger's MP, Cougar... probly like 15-20%, and Beevar 25%.

While Fox and Cougar don't take that much, Beevar starts getting a little costly as the MP builds up. Read: a little. They only get 4 Beevars if they don't med, tent, or use magic. Seems a lot, true, but when they're trying to get from point A to point B... it'll start to build up a libit.

As for Med... Well, yeah, they can med twice and have all their MP back. But, fat lot of good it does them in the here-and-now. Only one Call per battle, and certain extenuating circumstances can force an early Revert.

jumin said:

With the SP system, it seems that rangers will be defending alot more often towards the end of the battle in order to replenish their SP for the next battle.

That's a lot of turns the Ranger COULD have been using to lay into whatever's on the field. And trust me, when you're in a party that doesn't know the meaning of "leave one so we can Med"... Gets a bit frustrating.

jumin said:

But then... you might give rangers *alot* more SP points because they're also getting a life spell.

Who said it couldn't just cost 3 SP?


[EDIT]

I'm really not sure what I'm trying to accomplish by debating everything you're saying. I've got mixed feelings about the whole thing.

[Taterz]

let it be known i hate nitpicks, but i guess thats how people argue or whatever



Eh... as I understood the suggestion, rangers would probably keep their recovery abilities (only life was explicitly stated, but there's a reasonable implication that the related cure branch would be represented).

if they were to keep the recovery abilities, that would simply make them a gimpy whitemage. for the record we are gimpy whitemages and blackmages


Really? Changing it to SP would probably allow a fixed value for transformations, since your maximum point-pool would be well-defined and your ability to recover would be restricted. Having fixed values for everything and smaller numbers overall... seems like it'd simplify things to me.

i was referring to the fact that we are introducing a new stat to the game, and i was not referring specifically to rangers. i thought that was implied, but i guess not



For a given value of "works", that argument applies to anything... why not leave off at version 4?

once again, i was referring to the current system of mp only. why do people do this to me? currently, mp is working fine regarding skills and magic (and no, mp was not the same in v4 as it is now)


I don't really think the defining purpose of rangers is to fill a gap in the 'magic-to-mêlée' spectrum. What makes them unique, and the main reason people play rangers, is their transformations.


have you read the description of a ranger class? they are a mix of magic and melee, leaning towards the melee side. the transformations are an interesting addition. back in v4, rangers were kickass in both melee and magic (seeing as how the game didnt progress very far)


In fairness, I don't really keep up with this game's social scene/metagame that much, but don't you think that's a little egotistical?

how is it egotistical when i've had people tell me the exact claim i have made? in other words, i've had a couple people tell me i was the reason they made a ranger. and honestly, if someone did not reach the higher levels and actually show them the power of a hard hitter, do you think people would bother to make one? those same people seem to stick out with ranger until the 20s and then quit. the real fun begins with cougar, and ends with beevar. without someone "high up" to show them this potential, they just switch to another, more cookie cutter class.

The popularity of various classes and builds will obviously fluctuate throughout the life of the game, and while extant powerful characters are definitely influential in trend-setting, to suppose that other players are incapable of their own reasoned decisions is asinine.

lets forget the fact they even told me straight out i was their "inspiration" so to speak

It isn't exactly rocket-science. The strongest spells a ranger possesses are tier-2, which have a magnitude of roughly twice their willpower. The strongest mêlée ability rangers possess not only increases their overall damage to a whopping 250%, but does the same to their ability to withstand damage (i.e., HP), with a nice agility boost as gravy. Since the two abilities are mutually exclusive (that is, you can't cast spells while transformed, and you have to spend a turn changing to and from), a 'balanced' stat build isn't particularly advantageous.

not really, a ranger can be played to be a mage. no one feels like doing it. why? i've had many rangers ask what stat to put into. i told them pure strength. this is one way to play the class, as this class can play many roles (although it will lack in the mage side). a balanced stat build would be better suited for a class that actually uses melee with magic, i.e. the redmage. a balanced stat build for ranger would work in a similar way, only we wont get instill element. instead, we'd use calls to make up for that. as a bonus, backup healing (natural agi growth allows us to basically insure the likelyhood of an injured member surviving when the slow, pure wp whitemage is waiting to heal).

I doubt it took your example for people to realize that the ranger class favors physical development over magical.
had i not played a pure str ranger since the beginning of V5, do you honestly think many others would have? plenty of people have asked whats the best stat for ranger, and i simply said pure str. i could have told them pure willpower, which they would have done and then quit because "it sucks". think about it, if there was not a high level ranger (which i've only seen like 2 of, both of which seemingly disappeared) that has matched me in level. sure it might be snobbish for me to make such a claim, but who would you look to advice when you're a level 1 newbie, a level 50+ something ranger, or some level 27 bluemage? something leads me to conclude that the ranger might hold a bit more influence than the bluemage


EDIT
you have strayed from the original topic of the sp system, and i have taken the bait. back the topic on hand, what would all of this have anything to do with the SP system? it looks like an argument about rangers to me

fox = 10%
cougar = 15%
beevar = 20%

close, but no dice =P

[Sarm]

I think it is rather strange to claim that you first came up with a pure Str Ranger as if it means anything. Isn't the most common build with ALL meleers heavy Str anyway? To say that it would never have been done without you is really out there, to say the least.

I joke about it, but I certainly don't believe that I invented the usage of the Pure MP build. It doesn't matter if I did it or not - someone else would have anyway, and it's not exactly a spectacular display of knowledge to toy around with a choice of only 6 stats to boost. In your case, I think it would be likened more to say that you would've claimed to "invent" pure WP builds for mages instead. I am/was a so-called "inspiration" for a few other pure MP builds but it really doesn't mean shit.

Also, this argument about SP IS essentially a Ranger argument. They're, for the most part, the only class that gets affected by it. Red Mages aren't getting touched with magic at all, so in that direction it doesn't hold anything against them.

[Caoineag]

Cold words, right there.

Sorry, that was poorly worded. I honestly didn't mean to be rude.

I only meant to say that instead of typing [i]blah[/i], you can type [quote]blah[/quote] for a nice quote-box. Of course, without the thread and post number attributes, you don't get the nice author-and-time-stamp effect, but it's not usually necessary unless you're quoting from a separate thread, or the current thread is insanely long.

Basically what I was trying to say was, as you pointed out, the way things worked in V4... well... worked. But they work BETTER in these later versions; melee types have techs now, mages have area spells... I think it'd be best to sum it up with the old cliche, "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

This is what sounds contradictory. Specifically, "things worked in V4 [...] but they work BETTER in these later versions" doesn't jibe with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

V4 wasn't broken*, but they "fixed" it anyway, and made it better. Change is not necessarily for the worse.

So, to answer Taterz's question: "why introduce a new system when the current one works?"

• Because something other than MP makes more semantic sense for the physical classes. Since I am the nitpicky sort of person Taterz hates, to me, this is by itself sufficient reason for change.
• Because it eases the development of more unique abilities by removing the magnitude discrepancy (that is, spells using much more MP than skills) as well as the resource discrepancy (i.e., should using physical skills drain one's magical reserves, and vice versa).
• Because increased organization is generally a good idea anyway. For instance, separating abilities into "magic" and "non-magic" categories would most likely simplify the addition of the "mute" status effect for the enemies' use.

*[edit]At least insofar as it did more or less what it was supposed to, and the basic features were present. I don't presume to know how buggy it was or wasn't.[/edit]

As a side note, no, I wasn't around when V4 was new, nor did I intend to use it as a detailed reference. Rather, I just picked something that was a readily recognizable reference to something older that presumably functioned, but has since been inarguably improved.

[Taterz]

i dont recall saying anywhere that i had invented the pure str ranger, all i said was that i feel i had a large influence in the way the majority of rangers actually play ranger. think of it this way: someone gets a job to the high level range (different for each version) with a certain stat build and has had great results because of it. the natural inclination would be to tell others to use the similar stat build, as it should work for them very well too. wouldnt you think that they would believe them and follow their "example" so to speak? they didnt invent the build, they merely discovered it had great benefits.

and to say redmages dont get affected,
Red Mages would get both MP and SP. MP for Spells, and SP for Melee. Meditate would also restore 1 SP per use.
albeit redmages arent as heavily affected as rangers are.

as for the claim that mages spells take vasts amount of mp, look at the rate of mp used to total mp. divide, as used by U Dye, racks about 40-45% of his total mp. comparing that with nuke, you will see that its roughly the same amount. now, lookin at regening that mp back, U Dye will recover 8% or so back at the end of each fight (1 mp per success) which relates to a rough .3% for mages. mages have access to meditate, allowing them 15% back each round. U Dye will only be able to recover 8% each round, for a maximum of 12 rounds (+1 after the fight ends will peak him to 13 mp), whereas a mage can fully recover in about half that speed, using roughly 6 rounds.

what would be the point of adding in SP if the admins do not change the amount of mp recovered using defend? should they add it in so that melee could recover more % of their mp? if they should, why wouldnt they just allow defend to recover more mp?

[Sarm]

That's why I'm not too hot on the idea of changing MP to SP. It's just a number, and the ONLY class to really benefit from it would be Red Mages, but they could just use a % of MP for a skill anyway. And in the end, Ranger loses all spells but Life. So...

[Hiroshima]

sarm said:

I think it is rather strange to claim that you first came up with a pure Str Ranger as if it means anything. Isn't the most common build with ALL meleers heavy Str anyway? To say that it would never have been done without you is really out there, to say the least.

I joke about it, but I certainly don't believe that I invented the usage of the Pure MP build. It doesn't matter if I did it or not - someone else would have anyway, and it's not exactly a spectacular display of knowledge to toy around with a choice of only 6 stats to boost. In your case, I think it would be likened more to say that you would've claimed to "invent" pure WP builds for mages instead. I am/was a so-called "inspiration" for a few other pure MP builds but it really doesn't mean shit.

Also, this argument about SP IS essentially a Ranger argument. They're, for the most part, the only class that gets affected by it. Red Mages aren't getting touched with magic at all, so in that direction it doesn't hold anything against them.

sorry, buty i never would have thought pure str for a ranger, and, i have a bluemage going pure MP, because you did it just figured i'd let ya all know.

[Sarm]

But...but...shut up!!!

[Hiroshima]

bweh heh heh, oh, which reminds me, i should change my avatar to my new robes...

[Kain]

taterz said:

have you read the description of a ranger class? they are a mix of magic and melee, leaning towards the melee side. the transformations are an interesting addition. back in v4, rangers were kickass in both melee and magic (seeing as how the game didnt progress very far)

I think this is very thing being argued. Calls don't just make Rangers "lean" towards melee; they practically scream "Ignore the few magic spells you have and go STRENGTH STRENGTH STRENGTH!" Fact is, there's absolutely no point in giving Rangers spells, because the vast, vast majority of Rangers transform ASAP, and when they do use magic (which in itself is extremely situational, seeing as how there isn't exactly a WM shortage on THG), it's pathetically weak due to the overwhelming incentives to go for a melee-based build (or the total lack of incentives for going magic, depending on how you look at it). I don't see what's so wrong with just giving them Calls and the only spell they use (Life)... As far as I'm concerned, even that's being generous.

[Taterz]

.....but then i wont have ice 2 to level my minions

just because magic they do have is not worthwhile in exp situations, it comes in handy in other areas (mainly, the weaker hunting grounds). to claim that all rangers never use the other spells and getting rid of them seems a bit much.

even if i do use them 1% of the time, thats 1% of the time i have access to it and actually put it to use. the same can be said about blackmages, how often do you see them using psychostorm in an exp situation in PoP? probably they never do since it does almost nothing. in this case, it's become useless and should therefore be taken out. but what about the other areas they do use it? namely, the weaker hunting grounds.

so yea, just cause its useless while leveling the ranger themselves, it has uses elsewhere (i want to PL myself dun take away frm me plz)

[Kyou]

From my original understanding of the SP system (When Mettool mentioned it) was that Rangers would be able to use thier altered "Life, Cure, Ice" spell from morph, hell Snow wolfs can use Ice, why can't foxes? I see Rangers getting more SP then Dragoon, around 20 or so...

4 SP Call of Grizzly

3 SP Call of Cougar

2 SP Call of Fox

1 SP *Modified cure 1/3 wp + 1- 10*

3 SP *Modified cure = WP + 10- 30*

5 SP *New Named Life 1*

1 SP *New Named Ice 1 (Area and Single)

2-3 SP *New Named Ice 2 (Ditto)

3-4 SP Hunt

But, knowing me, I don't understand anything.

[Jumin]

why not let the ranger keep it's magic spells and give it both MP and SP like the RM, then everyone would be happy?
and i don't know how a ranger works when it's transformed, but why not just have the magic spells list disappear like what happens when u run out of MP.

the only "spell" i can think of that would be available would be Hunt, and that can be part of the SP system..

[Taterz]

my thing with SP is that its an inherently useless suggestion. if its aimed to raise the % melee gain through defend, admins can easily manipulate defend to give 2 mp or more (which they seem adamantly against). besides, all this ranger aruguing just seems aimed towards removing our spell list

[akuma]

Meh, my ranger is pretty balanced. Having 194 str and 193 wp. So for me at least magic is pretty useful, especially when there are a lack of lifers and curers. Granted, I'm almost always never the best at anything (striking/magic using), but I am always useful to have have around.

[Hiroshima]

okay, seriously...READ THE FREAKING RULES. this is like, the 3rd necrmanced thread this week...