Revamped RedMage EXP poll

[just2slick4u]

Sorry I took so long with the poll Mahn...>_>, but HERE it is...

[U. Dye]

Now just turn all the "mon" 's into "mang" and we're set.

Oh, BTW... I dunno mang, I only make Knights.

[Mettool]

I'm sorta in the middle. I feel that Red Mages either need faster levels, or more stat gains per level. (Example : All stats +3 at level up except Agility and Dex) I want to see Red Mages get at least one more buffing before V8. Whether it be stats or a spell.

Red mages kinda suck until Level 10, kick major ass after that, and start sucking again at Level 45, because they can barely level anymore. So my best-case scenario would be give them something that would either make them more useful at the start, or better at end-game.

[U. Dye]

mettool said:

So my best-case scenario would be give them something that would either make them more useful at the start, or better at end-game.

Boost. 3. 'Nuff said. >_>

[talon]

Boost 3 on a rm's spell list, would kind of go against the specializes in nothing, as they really get no tier 3 spells, except cure and 1 element. But, the 3 on all stats but agi and dex.. is like the opposite of how they are now.. 3 on agi and dex, 2 on the rest, it's like, last time I checked. We are still discussing things for classes. So, have patience, all. Keep the suggestions coming, though. Some are unique, some funny, some interesting. Would like to see more player thoughts to all classes.

[U. Dye]

Well, at least give 'em HS2... I mean, hell, they have the tier 3 Cure spell, so why not the tier 2 cure-all spell?

And, if they already have it and I just didn't know... Well... Er... Uh... I've never seen 'em use it. <_<;

[Kain]

I think the problem with RM's is the very nature of their class. They take very long to level, and while their spell list is diverse, most of it's useless later on. Shield 1, Boost 1, Barrier 1, etc. are nice in DM, SS, and early IC, but once you get to later IC, Mon, and have beaten Geyzer, other classes already have Tier 3 spells (or will soon get them). In PoP, Tier 1 spells are damn near useless unless you really need backup support.

Getting prepared for battles as an RM is painful too. RM's pretty much need to use all those Tier 1 spells (Shield, Boost, Barrier) to be effective, and then there's Instill, which also takes a turn. Later on, by the time an RM gets ready, most of the enemies will probably be dead due to other classes having abilities like Nuke, Pearl, White, Divide, Crush, etc. (and since RM's are masters of nothing, they get no comparable ability.) If the RM chooses not to increase their effectiveness in this way, they're just not very useful, except as backup attacking/healing.

I'd like to see the RM's experience curve slightly lowered, but I think a more realistic option that doesn't involve giving them more Tier 3 spells would be to give them more melee/magic combination abilities. Looking at things, I just don't think Instill is enough to justify a mostly low-level magic list and insanely large exp requirements. I'll try to think of specific abilities, and if I get any good ideas, I'll post in the New Skills thread...

[Takahashi]

Back in Version 4, I'd have said their XP reqs were absurd in a heartbeat; they just didn't have enough to justify requiring that much XP. However, now it's out of the question. After all, they have access to almost as many powerful weapons as a pure melee class, great armor selection, even more magic/HP/MP than before and a skill of their very own.

I'd go as far as to say that aside from Knight, no class has improved more from Version 4 to present-day FFTHG.

[U. Dye]

takahashi said:

After all, they have access to almost as many powerful weapons as a pure melee class, great armor selection, even more magic/HP/MP than before and a skill of their very own.

Pretty much every class has a skill of their own. BMs get the best Black spells, WMs get the best White ones, Blms get Weak, Poison, DF, etc., all the melee classes have different shit, Rangers have 3 calls... RMs have ONE thing that no other class has, ONE thing that can actually be considered Red magic: Instill. As far as uniqueness goes, RMs got the shit end of the stick. They get good equips, true, but their most useful spells are tier 1(Boost, Barrier, and maybe Shield... but I doubt it), and to top it off, they're taken from other classes! So, yeah, they get a skill of their own, alright. 1 skill, and it actually kind of sucks.

[talon]

Like I've said before on this subject, Dye. xD Red mages are, essentially, like a god-class. They get pretty much everything. Good armor, good weapons, good hits, good setup spells, good attack spells, and decent heal spells. In order to keep such a class who gets, virtually, everything from being overpowered, they have to be reduced the most. If they were to gain the damage semi-comparable to a knight, and the healing capabilities comparable to a wm, and magic damage comparable to a BM (even if it is off by 200, it is still comparable damage), and then unique stuff of their own, we'd virtually be forced to probably reduce their stats all down to 1 per level.
Regardless of how less damage they can do or heal, it is the fact that they can do a lot of things that just about every class can. And since they do have abilities and the likes that spread into all the class's 'unique abilities', be it physical damage, magic damage, healing, etc, we cannot give them any real unique skills of their own, or they would become that much more of a 'god class'.
Red mages are actually as useful as ever, but the thing about being able to do anything, is the right moment of which you can, and how it is brought it. It's relatively pointless in most of the parties people clamor for, because they already have usually two that can do each of such aspects. But, in the right parties, red mages are very valuable, more so than any other class.
Personally, and I said this many times , I'd like to see instill be one-turn. As well, perhaps curving a few exp rates for later levels on many classes, and on many monsters later in the game. It is just like how in an earlier version, an area was new, and it was discovered that tweaking was needed, Pop perhaps is in need of a small tweak, judging by a few things that I have seen. But, only time will tell more, mayhaps.

[Takahashi]

gamer201 said:

Pretty much every class has a skill of their own. BMs get the best Black spells, WMs get the best White ones, Blms get Weak, Poison, DF, etc., all the melee classes have different shit, Rangers have 3 calls... RMs have ONE thing that no other class has, ONE thing that can actually be considered Red magic: Instill.

A poor choice of words on my part, but it's still not like the boosts that Red Mage got warrant a DECREASE in total XP. As limited as a Red Mage's arsenal appears to be, it's still been boosted enough from Version 4 (where I first heard strong cries to decrease RM's XP reqs) to where their current XP reqs aren't as absurd.

gamer201 said:

As far as uniqueness goes, RMs got the shit end of the stick. They get good equips, true, but their most useful spells are tier 1(Boost, Barrier, and maybe Shield... but I doubt it), and to top it off, they're taken from other classes! So, yeah, they get a skill of their own, alright. 1 skill, and it actually kind of sucks.

Uniqueness is a matter of interpretation. Fighters getting the best natural HP growth isn't really unique, because a Ranger can match or exceed that growth via Call of the Fox/Cougar/Grizzly. Fighters can protect a target from physical damage, but a Black/White Mage tandem can do almost the same thing through use of Barrier 3/Shield 1. Fighters can do good melee damage to a single target... but so can a Black Belt, Dragoon, Ranger, Knight or Thief. They can boost the damage of all allies at once, but Boost 2 serves the same purpose.

The point is, if you're willing to dissect them, some classes don't have anything truly unique either. Does that make them bad? Plus, as a jack-of-all-trades, it wouldn't make much sense if RM had several unique skills. They're supposed to dabble in several different fields at once, and they do. There are plans to give RM more skills and spells, further enhancing their ability to deal with any situation.

Plus, with parties becoming more diverse, the primary strength of a Red Mage is slightly muted. There's not much we can do in that case; if we make changes to make a Red Mage useful in such an environment (I say they're useful as it stands, but whatever), it risks making RM too strong compared to other classes. A jack-of-all-trades that is capable of being a suitable replacement for any one of three classes (White Mage, Black Mage, melee class of your choice aside from Knight) doesn't sound good to me.

[Manboy]

On FFO, RMs are referred to as the "Half-assed class"

Of course, this isn't FFO, but I felt like saying it.

As a jack-of-all-trades, RMs could be a little more innovative with their diverse, but limited, talents (like instill element). I think a god-class would probably have every non-blue magic and non-nuke/white spells and need like 3 times RM's exp.

Edit: I vote for staying the same, mon.

[just2slick4u]

where all my doobie brothers at on this poll?

[Mettool]

I have been thinking. Red Mages need a new passive skill.

I'm sure you know that BluMs and RMs have the same passive skill; Resist Ailments. But I've been thinking that this should be changed to "Resist Magic", which blocks 10/20/30% of All elements, spell effects, and even drain and rub. Since RMs are supposed to do everything, they need a passive skill... that does everything.

Someone also suggested that RMs get a passive skill that gives them a 5% chance of automatically casting Boost 2, Barrier 2, Shield 2, or Healstorm 1 at the start of any battle without costing any MP. This sounds more suited to a BluM, but it could work for RMs too.

[edit] Kain bought up another good point that Red Mages need more skills that incorporate both STR and Willpower. Instill works fine, yes. But You're limited to only one Element for the whole game with instill. Red Mages, right now, are definitely leaning more on the Magic side, and have very few melee options other than good equips, attacking, and instill. Maybe something that works like Dice or Defonce that adds elemental damage.

...also, I dont know how many of you played Tales of Symphonia. But Kartos was a red mage and kicked incomprehensible amounts of ass.

[Sarm]

I like how three people wasted their votes on the two gimmick options.

Also, Leadership > Boost2. The thing Boost2 has that goes for it is an easy antiWeak that covers the whole party.

[U. Dye]

He apparently doesn't remember it very well, but Kain was telling me about an idea he had for some kind of barrier ability for RMs. It was something like, the next enemy to attack the RM would either break through the barrier(like 20% chance), or the barrier would stop the attack and the attacker would have its attack rebound on it, as well as a shock from the barrier. This would be a single hit, based on both the monster's Attack power and like a fraction of the RM's WP(or maybe all of it). That would be a truly unique skill: a single blow that incorporates both Str and WP(Instill doesn't count; the physical strike and magical one are separated into 2 shots).

[Mettool]

I still think RMs should get Instill level 2. Means Ice/Fire/Lit 2 to their attack. Instill Level 1 loses all of it's usefullness after Level 30, andt he added damage rarely exceeds 50. Instill 2 would rectify this skill and keep it alive throughout the course of the game. Even though Red Mages would go for a WP build if this was put in, I would encourage it. I mean they're red MAGES after all.

[Sarm]

(When reading this post, keep in mind that it's based on speculation, secondhand experiences and what I've read on the FF:THG guides. I haven't tried the class. Take that as you will)

As has been stated over and over and over again by many different people, RedMages were always supposed to be soso with many different abilities. Their skill list, while somewhat lengthy and will be added to with Fast/LightStorm, screams "last resort class" if you had to make up your own party.

Yes, they seem to do everything. They're just about average in whatever they wish to do. The only thing that isn't average is their EXP requirements, needing almost double that of 5 others.

Their total required EXP to reach LV40, according to Takahashi's guide, is 14230000.

RedMage does appear to have a counterpart though. Ranger. Their required EXP for the same level is only 6544000. A total difference of 7686000 between the two classes. That's enough leftover EXP to put a second Ranger to LV40 straight away, and a third one to LV32!

As has been hinted at in the class guide, RedMages and Rangers are similar but Rangers are more focused on melee. I've compared the lists and these are the spells that RedMages get but Rangers don't have available.

Shield
Demi
Healstorm
Lock2
Restore
Boost2
Element3
Cure3

(Peep and Scan are somewhat similar, which is why I didn't list them. Animal transformations and Instill I clumped together and canceled out due to the "doing more melee damage" thing, and left out FF due to transformations making up for it with HP, and Camoflague)

What I haven't mentioned until now is the obviousness that the spells they share, they obtain at different levels. While this is true, they still get them. It just comes off that Ranger is essentially the impatient person's RedMage, with a unique ability set to boot.

[talon]

Actually, they're not quite the same. Rangers can boost their attack much higher than a red mage with boost3. For all who really care, transformations are like a jump boost, as well as the stats are different. Even if boost was stackable, the math actually favors rangers over red mages in damage, with the red mage having boost3 casted on them twice, due to the differences.The closest comparison to a ranger is a dragoon. The stats are quite similar, and they both can self-boost, if you will, at best by comparison of grizzly and crush. Although, one does yeild a bit of a higher boost. Considering that, red mages really aren't close at all to rangers.

[Sarm]

Well, what I meant was that I just put Instill and the transformations together under "generic melee skills". My post was focused mostly on magic, and the EXP.

[Taterz]

well rangers are basically screwed compared to redmages. barrier doesnt hold in morphs, so our large hp base goes quickly on magic happy monsters (which happens often when you dont want it)

granted we can do large single hit damage, redmages can essentially take out a larger group in 2-3 turns than any ranger could ever hope to.

redmages score in area attacks, which will help a ton when you need crowd control (something rangers fail horribly at). and while rangers can build a mage type, we get buff/debuffs that make willpower essentially useless. ice 2? that only works in deserts, and there are no deserts in PoP...

redmages flat out own rangers in magic, and we do the same to them in melee. if you look at it in terms of fighting potential over exp requirements, our potential (rangers) is small, so our exp requirement should also be small. redmages have a high potential, requiring a large exp base to even out the ratio. as much as i'd like to own as a redmage, i tend to have horrid patience to gain 1 level every 9 weeks on exp that can reach roughly 1-2 million an hour (perhaps 4-5 million if awesome)

[U. Dye]

taterz said:

well rangers are basically screwed compared to redmages. barrier doesnt hold in morphs, so our large hp base goes quickly on magic happy monsters (which happens often when you dont want it)

*coughblessingcough* I have personally seen one Ranger whose HP breaks the 2k mark in Beevar form(think it was Pooly). Now, even without the blessing, a Fire3 from a Fire Dragon would do, what, 200-250 damage? You'd need 8 max-power Fire3's on that Ranger to drop 'em. Magic =/= a problem.

[Rowan]

When the ranger is hit by more than say one monster, multiple magic attacks that decrease their large hp turn through turn not just a single monster poking him with fire consecutively. Also having 2k hp is rather high leveled, the magic damage being taken at the recommended level really hurts, Wyverns in SS for example. Not really sure of a 'recommended' level for pop but before that magic is a rangers bane.

[Takahashi]

gamer201 said:

*coughblessingcough* I have personally seen one Ranger whose HP breaks the 2k mark in Beevar form(think it was Pooly). Now, even without the blessing, a Fire3 from a Fire Dragon would do, what, 200-250 damage? You'd need 8 max-power Fire3's on that Ranger to drop 'em. Magic =/= a problem.

Meanwhile, the 2k HP Ranger has zero magic defense. One casting of Barrier 3 on any other character, and that same 200-250 damage from a Fire Dragon is reduced to 80-100 damage. Against a Black or White Mage, that damage is further reduced to 40-50 damage. So post-Blessing, the other nine classes need approximate HP values equal to the following to match the grizzled Ranger's durability:

Fighter/Knight/Dragoon/Thief/Black Belt/Red Mage/Blue Mage: 640-800 HP (720 on average)
White/Black Mage: 320-400 HP (360 on average)

Either amount is easy to exceed post-Enlightenment, meaning that the other classes can absorb more Fire 3's. In other words, 250% normal HP with 0% fire resistance isn't necessarily better than 100% normal HP with 60% or 80% fire resistance.

[U. Dye]

Post-blessing, that 200-250 gets dropped to 100-125. It would take 20 of those to kill a Ranger with 2k. I guess I should've clarified that a bit. Or maybe I shouldn't have compared the damage against a pre-blessing Ranger to the HP of a post-blessing one.

Anyway, I have this NAGGING question in the back of my mind here... This is a topic about RMs. Why the hell are we talking about Rangers?

[Sarm]

I compared their EXP rates and spell selections, and people jumped on my comment of ignoring Instill/transformations with more talk of Barrier3.

[Rowan]

Things tend to go off topic I suppose...

Anyways I had heard before Rangers are 70% physical 30% magic, and that Redmages are 50/50, if you follow that thinking blue mages are 30/50.

Now if redmages are to be 50/50 how about something other than instill for physical wise. Yes they do decent damage wear decent armor which accounts for the 50 in attack but I think they something a little more that isnt a direct copy of a knights skill which has been turned down already in a skills suggestion a whiles back. What that should be I have no idea it's not my field of expertise, and furthermore wrong place to post it.

If I were to suggest something, it would probably be something simmilar to Dragoon fury, double strike, or some other passive activation, maybe even a passive instill.