Various ideas.

[Kain]

So, a few of us (me, Mett, Faru, maybe Jesus, I dunno) were discussing some things on Wsay, and I figured I'd post some of the ideas we had here. If I remember who had the idea, I'll give them credit, but if I don't remember and you want credit, PM me and I will do so. Do the same if you think I've left anything important off.

-Make Jump abilities incapable of Weak hits. It fits in with the Dragoons' specialty of doing large damage to a single enemy and a Weak hit on a Jump is basically a waste of MP (as you could do about the same damage by just attacking). Besides, how could something like jumping into the air and slamming a sharp weapon into something as you come back down not hurt a ton? (This one was my idea, and sort of what sparked all the talk in the first place.)

-The Grizzly transformation should lower evasion speed/attack speed in order to offset the extremely high attack power and buckets of HP. (Faru had this idea.)

-RM's need more attacking abilities (the only ones they have now are Instill, three Tiers of one elemental spell, Drain, and Demi), and if they're getting Lightstorm, they should get Darkfire so that enemies who are only weak to Dark (like Iron Golems) can't only be taken out efficiently by BLM's. Also, if RM's are going to be jacks-of-all-trades, they should be prepared for any situation, right? (Myself and Faru.)

-Calls make Rangers so melee-oriented that giving them magic spells is kind of pointless. (Mett and maybe Eikooma, I'm not entirely sure.)

The stuff down here relates to Geyzer and Magora (mostly Geyzer, though), taken from a discussion Taka and myself had in the wee hours of the morning:

-Geyzer's attacks already do a few hundred damage clean, and Boost 1 on top of it just kills anyone who isn't a pure HP Fighter or someone with tons of defensive spells on them in one hit. Give him Lock 2 instead, in order to counter the defensive buffs. (All Faru here.)

-Either give Geyzer Ice 1 and keep his WP the same, or let him have Ice 2 and lower his WP some (doesn't matter), and give him a special ability that he'll use on Barrier'd people that will, in addition to negating Barrier spells, will give the target(s) a weakness to Ice, and have Geyzer follow this up with whichever Ice spell he has. I suppose the Ice effect could be nullified by Restore, but I'd much prefer if it wore off only after being hit by Ice magic. (The idea for the ice weakness/Barrier negater ability was mine, but Faru suggested that it only be used on people that are already Barrier'd, which was brilliant seeing as how the whole discussion came about over Barrier 3.)

-A similar tactic as described above could be given to an enemy or two, probably in PoP2: inflict a character with a random weakness and hit them with an element of that type. (Me.)

-This is more general and was one of the things that sparked the discussion, but it's obvious that Geyzer and Magora were designed around this "supar powarfal" idea, and in gameplay, it just translates into too-powerful attacks and one-hit kills.

-Magora should have some way of Dispelling buffs; either through specialized minions that can Area-Dispell, or perhaps by adding Dispell to her spell list. Also, she could have normal Middle Demons as minions, but perhaps during the fight (maybe after X turns) she could begin to kill them and revive them as specialized minions that have the ability to Dispell buffs. (The specialized minion thing is Faru's idea, Magora having Dispell is mine, and the third idea was a mixture I made of Magora's "character" traits and Faru's idea.)

-Make Magora's usage of Rub (or Nuke) less common, and give her Psychostorm or Darkfire as another method of attack. (Mostly Faru here.)

-Give Magora a spell that would remove Barrier spells from everyone and also have a Lock 2 effect. (Faru.)

Woo.

[Sarm]

I thought Darkfire was Blue magic, and that Red Mages are just half in White/Black. Personally I would've liked seeing Red Mages get all three Black elements (and it's not like their base +2 Will can ever outdo a Black Mage). There's also the thing where it's been stated a dozen times that Red Mages would never get an all-attack spell.
I suppose it was said they'd never get all 3 elements too, but...
Also, I don't know of any enemies that are actually WEAK to Darkfire that aren't also weak to all magic in particular. Last I remembered, Iron Golems resisted dark too...

Sounds kinda sucky that a Jump can do a weak hit though.

I think being able to remove Barrier would keep players on their toes, but why remove it AND make them even weaker than before? That sounds screwed up.

[talon]

Firstly, irons golems take normal damage from dark magic. That's it. Not a weakness. As well, if we gave them darkfire, we might as well give them psychostorm, for that matter. >.> But really, Darkfire, psychostorm, nuke, pearl, white, poison.. maybe one-three others... all single-class spells. The idea of being jack of all trades isn't, honestly, being all to cast every spell and/or do every skill. But rather, they can do some of the four types of moves. Attack, spell damage, spell (de)buff, and healing. That, makes them jack of all trades. I don't think the idea of giving them such a title, was meant to mean they get everything.

As for dragons and weak hits, well, you must actually remember that it is possible to dodge something that falls. Hell, I've done it before myself. The fact that jump attacks never miss, should say enough for itself. If something was going to fall, would you stand and take it? I wouldn't. O.o But, well.. I guess my point is that, weak hits are more like you just barely scraped the thing.. And I doubt dragoons can turn and fall at a different angle, after they're already in the air. Thieves are the only class that, I would think, would ever get such a thing. They are suppose to be stealth and attack from the shadows. Black belts, also, would probably be the next class type I would think to get the ability of no-weaks, considering the type of training they would endure to be what they are.

For Geyzer, he actually was already nerfed. In my own opinion, he was, indeed, the most well-rounded boss that was in the game. Enough of such, that we could have left him to same for v8. But, underleveleds complained too much, so Kija went ahead and nerfed him already. So, I suppose, the problem with him was actually already done. Nerfing him anymore, would actually just make him as powerful as a normal IC monster, and who ever heard of a boss who was just a normal beast with higher hp? >.> That, would suck. xD Besides, Kain. With the idea that yourself, myself, and some other people would like to see happen to Barrier, would just make them even more screwy. We may as well just give him dispel2, to negate anything he wants, as that might work out in a better form of battle basics.

I guess that's it so far.. Have some other stuff to checkin with, so I'm ending my commentary on the rest for another time. >.>

[Takahashi]

sarm said:

I thought Darkfire was Blue magic, and that Red Mages are just half in White/Black. Personally I would've liked seeing Red Mages get all three Black elements (and it's not like their base +2 Will can ever outdo a Black Mage). There's also the thing where it's been stated a dozen times that Red Mages would never get an all-attack spell.
I suppose it was said they'd never get all 3 elements too, but...
Also, I don't know of any enemies that are actually WEAK to Darkfire that aren't also weak to all magic in particular. Last I remembered, Iron Golems resisted dark too...

Sounds kinda sucky that a Jump can do a weak hit though.

I think being able to remove Barrier would keep players on their toes, but why remove it AND make them even weaker than before? That sounds screwed up.

The idea I had (and I'm guessing that Kain's was similar) is that currently, there's nothing that really discourages a Black/Blue Mage from using Barrier 3 indiscriminately; the rewards far outweigh the risks. Basically, right now a Black/Blue Mage can go "Here, have 60% resistance to roughly everything that does damage. Don't worry about any drawbacks, because there aren't any." That's not right. Dispelling it would be a start, but the BM/BlM can just re-cast it. Having it so that some monsters can make Barrier backfire would be better, even if it's simple as being afflicted with Lock.

Ultimately, I'd be happy if Barrier was changed to only affect magic damage (and it was relocated to White Mage, the job designed for skills that reduce damage taken). In compensation, give Black and Blue Mages a set of spells called Debarrier that increase the amount of damage that the target takes (Debarrier 1 would increase magic damage dealt by 15%, Debarrier 2 would affect a 3x3 area, Debarrier 3 would increase magic damage dealt by 30%; all of them act as the opposite of the corresponding Barrier spell).

[Sarm]

I wouldn't know about Black Mages, but I think in most cases they have better things to do than play defensively when most of their spell list is offensive. I was certain the point of a Blue Mage was to screw with and irritate enemies, rather than blowing them up. I wouldn't see a problem of giving Barrier to White Mages, but it would irk me to see Blues stripped of it.

The word Debarrier sounds really awkward...maybe something like Magnify or Curse instead. (And I'd be all over a spell like that. I love me my LV2 statdown spells, since 1 and 3 are next to worthless)

If such a thing were added, though, I think it ought to even extend to a monster's innate resistance being lowered too, allowing the frequency of other stat spells and "chance" spells to have a greater chance of succeeding. As it stands, magic often seems to do decent damage already. In tiny parties, stat down magic is alright, but in large parties they suck ass. Compound that with a necessity to form large groups until you're overleveled for an area...

The idea behind giving negative consequences to defensive spells is, in my opinion, very stupid. You could give them all to White Mage or not. If there's even any RISK of a drawback, then there's probably no worth in the ability at all. Just look at Bum Rush. Nobody wants to cast a defensive spell with the knowledge that it can bite them in the ass later for it. Penalizing players for using tactical abilities like that sounds...DWQish, to be honest.

[U. Dye]

sarm said:

Nobody wants to cast a defensive spell with the knowledge that it can bite them in the ass later for it. Penalizing players for using tactical abilities like that sounds...DWQish, to be honest.

Hey, just like a GTA game, any problem can be solved by killing the right crapbag.

Got something that's gonna turn a Bar3 into a Lock3-ish sort of thing on you, kill its ass first.

If it happens to be, say, Mag... Well, she doesn't attack physically anyway. Do the math.

[Kain]

sarm said:

I thought Darkfire was Blue magic, and that Red Mages are just half in White/Black. Personally I would've liked seeing Red Mages get all three Black elements (and it's not like their base +2 Will can ever outdo a Black Mage). There's also the thing where it's been stated a dozen times that Red Mages would never get an all-attack spell.
I suppose it was said they'd never get all 3 elements too, but...

I suppose RM's are a mixture of WM and BM, but why not give them a few BLM spells? It'd increase their effectiveness and versatility. They already get a few de-buffs, and giving them Darkfire, Poison, and maybe even Weak spells couldn't hurt.

I think being able to remove Barrier would keep players on their toes, but why remove it AND make them even weaker than before? That sounds screwed up.

I'll get to this in a minute...

talon said:

Firstly, irons golems take normal damage from dark magic. That's it. Not a weakness.

Okay, but normal damage > severely neutered damage. Everything else BUT Darkfire is crap against Iron Golems unless you're a high level, and even then, you wouldn't believe how weak your attacks against an IG were.

As well, if we gave them darkfire, we might as well give them psychostorm, for that matter. >.> But really, Darkfire, psychostorm, nuke, pearl, white, poison.. maybe one-three others... all single-class spells. The idea of being jack of all trades isn't, honestly, being all to cast every spell and/or do every skill. But rather, they can do some of the four types of moves. Attack, spell damage, spell (de)buff, and healing. That, makes them jack of all trades. I don't think the idea of giving them such a title, was meant to mean they get everything.

RM's need more attack spells/abilities/whatever. Right now, if you're in a party as an RM, all you do the whole goddamn time is heal me/buff me/de-buff that. Making them more versatile will make them more effective. I still don't believe that the high exp requirements for RM's are justified, seeing as how they get a few offensive spells and so many defensive ones that anyone playing as an RM might as well accept the fact they're going to spend the majority of the game as a second-rate WM. If you actually want to attack, you have to take at least two rounds Boosting and Instilling so that you can do decent damage (forget offensive spells; as an RM, the few you have are pathetic), and if you're soloing or in a small group, you'll be wishing for a defensive buff and a heal by the time you get ready (and that's just the best-case scenario). So, to reiterate, all RM's will be good for is a second-rate healing/buffing class because the few offensive spells they have are worthless and they take too long to prepare in order to do decent physical damage. Also, like I said, they're second-rate as a healing/buffing class; their WP is too low for decent healing and their MP is too low for continued usage of buffs.

As for dragons and weak hits, well, you must actually remember that it is possible to dodge something that falls. Hell, I've done it before myself. The fact that jump attacks never miss, should say enough for itself. If something was going to fall, would you stand and take it? I wouldn't. O.o But, well.. I guess my point is that, weak hits are more like you just barely scraped the thing.. And I doubt dragoons can turn and fall at a different angle, after they're already in the air. Thieves are the only class that, I would think, would ever get such a thing. They are suppose to be stealth and attack from the shadows. Black belts, also, would probably be the next class type I would think to get the ability of no-weaks, considering the type of training they would endure to be what they are.

You explained this one yourself: Jump never misses. I find it VERY hard to believe that a class so accurate as to be able to pinpoint exactly where they need to be in the air along with the angle at which they need to fall, even taking into account the possibility of the enemy trying to dodge (if Dragoons can Jump so high in the first place, I don't see why it's so hard to believe that they could change the angle at which they land) to hit a target, big or small, and NEVER miss, would ever just "scrape" said target.

For Geyzer, he actually was already nerfed. In my own opinion, he was, indeed, the most well-rounded boss that was in the game. Enough of such, that we could have left him to same for v8. But, underleveleds complained too much, so Kija went ahead and nerfed him already. So, I suppose, the problem with him was actually already done. Nerfing him anymore, would actually just make him as powerful as a normal IC monster, and who ever heard of a boss who was just a normal beast with higher hp? >.> That, would suck. xD Besides, Kain. With the idea that yourself, myself, and some other people would like to see happen to Barrier, would just make them even more screwy. We may as well just give him dispel2, to negate anything he wants, as that might work out in a better form of battle basics.

...Before I get into anything else, Geyzer was nerfed because of the complaints of underleveled people? That's goddamn ridiculous. You might as well nerf Vallatio because people who are at level 5 can't beat him.

Anyways, I hardly believe that Geyzer was the most balanced...well, considering how screwed up some of the other bosses are, maybe that isn't such a ridiculous claim. But any boss that can kill most people in one hit unless they have an overpowered buff which shall remain nameless cast on them is overpowered (sans stuff like Rub).

I'm not saying we should make Geyzer (or Magora, for that matter) weaker; I'm saying we should make him just as challenging without all the cheapness. Basically, make him hard in the "If I lose, I'm going to try again ASAP" way, and not the "Man, that was so cheap, screw it" way. Why can't anyone seem to grasp this? -_-

sarm said:

The idea behind giving negative consequences to defensive spells is, in my opinion, very stupid. You could give them all to White Mage or not. If there's even any RISK of a drawback, then there's probably no worth in the ability at all. Just look at Bum Rush. Nobody wants to cast a defensive spell with the knowledge that it can bite them in the ass later for it. Penalizing players for using tactical abilities like that sounds...DWQish, to be honest.

Here's the problem with stuff like Barrier 3: it just makes things too easy. And why not abuse it? It's powerful, and there's no risk involved. See, all these powerful buffs people use, in addition to just being flat-out cheap, also screw up the bosses. I remember when Magora was put in...everyone who fought her basically said the same thing:

"MAN MAGORA WAS EASY LOLZ"

Hell, even I said it. You know why? Barrier 3. So, the Brotherhood took these complaints into consideration and buffed Magora. Now, Magora (and Geyzer too) are at the point where you CAN'T beat them (Magora moreso than Geyzer, I'll admit) unless you're incredibly, incredibly, incredibly lucky, or you have someone with Barrier 3. Basically, powerful buffs throw off the balance. Why not punish people who abuse these spells, using them in place of good ol' fashioned training? Right now, low 50's (and I mean loooow) can beat Magora because of Barrier 3, which is really gonna screw things up come PoP2.

[Sarm]

Here's a suggestion that I don't understand why I've never seen made before.

Give the bosses Barrier spells!

I'll say it again, though. There isn't SUPPOSED to be a risk with a spell that's designed to make you live longer. You may as well give Cure/Healstorm a 10% chance of doing damage instead of healing, or Life a chance of destroying the body, because that's how it seems along a similar train of thought.

About the Blue magic. It's supposed to be exclusive to the Blue Mage class, supposedly taking it from Voleron and all that stuff. Blue magic is the smallest color list of the three magic sets. This is masked by their taking a few types of spells from white/black as well. (Barrier, Boost, Dispel, one element, Osmose, Scan from BMs, Cure 1/2, Slow from WMs).

I'm in a rush at the moment so I'm not going to compare RM lists, but their entire point is being more or less a second rate WM with a few scattered spells on the side. You said give them Darkfire, Poison, and Weak. That's almost half of the Blue Mage spell set.

I do think their EXP rate is absurd though.

[talon]

"Why not punish people who abuse these spells, using them in place of good ol' fashioned training?".. Personally, I don't feel like spending my entire day viewing people over and over and over, not being able to do anything else because of the amount of views I would need to do, to make this even remotely. -.- As well, I have fought geyzer quite a few times. Every time, there are only 2 threats. Firstly, his physical attack. It never overkilled to the point of 1 and 1/2 times the health, typically, like kaug. The hits weren't really bad. A simple shield2 spell, actually, was enough to sustain the damage. As well, for the second, was ice3 area. Sure, barrier3 the wm. Many get hurt, except the white mage. With enough elementals left, or if he does it again, the party is gone but the whitemage. Kind of hard for that to win.
However, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but geyzer is one of the only bosses who really made people think. Made people plan the fight. Val was too easy, Kaug is easy, grygasz is a dead give-away, Magora is just the same, only reversed in tactics. Geyzer, however, you had to plan around enemy formation, what do to depending on what happened last, etc.
As well, I have been hearing A FREAKING LOT about people fighting him at level 32-34, kain. Are you telling me, that is appropriate levels for people to fight him, with classes such as blms, white mages, thieves, black belts.. Hell, just the other week, there was a level 28 thief in a party, fighting geyzer. Believe it or not, but if they didn't make the 2 mistakes they did, they had that fight, even with all three thieves they had. Almost an easy win. Geyzer was pretty balanced. I mean, hell, the old version of him, it's possible to live if you get things going on a good beat, and you kept it that way. The only times I really see barrier3 use with him, mostly, is on a healer. People don't normally go overboard on barriering everyone for him.

Erm, last note.. Exactly how high do dragoons jump? I always figured it to just be about person-height, maybe 6 feet. Not like they'd be as high as a skyscraper or something, nor have I found anything in the game scripts, background stories, or code that details how high. A jump short like that, would be enough to be able to always hit, considering the length of the weapon they use. I've actually done something of the sort in a renaissance crown war event. xD

[Rowan]

On the how high Dragoons jump thing it depends on what source you're looking at it from. They're supposed to in say FF'ish terms jump into the clouds. And before (don't know if its the same now lots of changes since I've played one) you jumped for one turn then land the next, meaning in one turn you jumped high enough to not fall back down the same turn. I'm pretty sure things have changed by now, but dragoons are supposed to emulate dragons by being in the sky, an opposed tactic to say a dragon flying away and breathing on them, so pretty high.
Also being masters of highaltitude combat I'd have to agree with Kain that they can wheel about change angles if they're high enough, but I also agree with Talon in that if the target chooses to dodge at the last moment then it was either a glancing blow or near miss, or the dragoon did miss with the lance but instead of wasting it on a miss used some sort of secondary attack (butt end of the spear if it isnt lodged in the ground or simply gauntlet'd punch) to deal a 'weak' hit.

[talon]

Well, in a theory, to a point, a combat round isn't really all that long.. Take into account, this isn't the old batman tv show. The badguys don't get in a line for you. When you're facing 32 horrors, they're going to stock pile on ya. So, I'd assume a mere six feet to possible 8, as it really only takes a space of a few seconds for every single being on the battle field to take a swipe at one another, including a few multiple hits. I'd go into much further detail, but I don't think I can make a post that long, nor do I think any of you would ever bother to read it. xD
Anyways. Even with 8 feet, longest amount of height/length and time in the air, the enemy could still dodge. But, this is were reasoning comes in. Granted, almost no one would really be able to pull this off affectively, so I'm still using standard game graphic rules. But, I figure the auto-hit would be that the dragoon changed his attack, and not his angle. Suppose the enemy moved under and behind him real quick? Easy enough, power-swipe widely/possible over and swing around your head, you'll hit him. Rolls right before you hit? Tilte the spear/berg/whatever and push so it scrapes the ground and slides into the rat bastard. Besides, our characters are human-based. I'd believe that if one could jump 50-100 ft, the others, without training, would be able to clear at least 20. Using chi to push yourself along the air? Go the hell back to DBZ. Anyways.. that's how I've always pictured battling Dragoons.

[Mettool]

What the hell are you talking about, Reap? Since when do Physics have to make sense in a video game?

When Dragoons jump, they jump high. That's why they leave the screen : They're in the air.

But if you want to take physics into consideration, lets assume a Dragoon is 30 feet in the air. At the Gravity constant of 9.8 feet, the impact would be 3.06 times heavier than a standard hit. And monsters dont really just moveo ut of the way. Because, well, the game is Turn-based! Nobody moves until they're told.

[Kain]

talon said:

"Why not punish people who abuse these spells, using them in place of good ol' fashioned training?".. Personally, I don't feel like spending my entire day viewing people over and over and over, not being able to do anything else because of the amount of views I would need to do, to make this even remotely. -.-

Err, I said "punish" in reply to Sarm's post that the Barrier remove/Ice weakness ability I was talking about for Geyzer being a "penalty." I meant that that ability would be a "punishment" for people over-using Barrier spells, not "punishing" people by throwing them in jail or something. -_-

However, I'm not sure if you've noticed, but geyzer is one of the only bosses who really made people think. Made people plan the fight. Val was too easy, Kaug is easy, grygasz is a dead give-away, Magora is just the same, only reversed in tactics. Geyzer, however, you had to plan around enemy formation, what do to depending on what happened last, etc.

While I'll admit I haven't fought Geyzer in awhile, I don't remember there being a whole lot of strategy after the Elementals were killed, other than "hit him as hard as you can while attempting to not eat cave floor." Standard boss fare, really...no trick, no gimmick, no unique abilities.

As well, I have been hearing A FREAKING LOT about people fighting him at level 32-34, kain. Are you telling me, that is appropriate levels for people to fight him, with classes such as blms, white mages, thieves, black belts.. Hell, just the other week, there was a level 28 thief in a party, fighting geyzer. Believe it or not, but if they didn't make the 2 mistakes they did, they had that fight, even with all three thieves they had. Almost an easy win.

Okay, let's try this again...

I am not saying Geyzer should be weakened.
I am not saying Geyzer should be weakened.
I am not saying Geyzer should be weakened.

With that in mind, reread what I was saying before. -_-

Geyzer was pretty balanced. I mean, hell, the old version of him, it's possible to live if you get things
going on a good beat, and you kept it that way. The only times I really see barrier3 use with him, mostly, is on a healer. People don't normally go overboard on barriering everyone for him.

It's more of a Magora problem, but Barrier 3 is right there to be abused.

Erm, last note.. Exactly how high do dragoons jump? I always figured it to just be about person-height, maybe 6 feet. Not like they'd be as high as a skyscraper or something, nor have I found anything in the game scripts, background stories, or code that details how high. A jump short like that, would be enough to be able to always hit, considering the length of the weapon they use. I've actually done something of the sort in a renaissance crown war event. xD

Well, you don't have anything concrete to back up your jumping height assessment--real-word physics just don't apply--if the game was so deeply rooted in our reality, we might as well remove all magic spells and let people who play as mages type obscenities to shout at enemies, with pre-programmed words set to do a certain amount of damage to the enemies' self-esteem--so arguing about how high isn't going to be very productive, but I might as well counter anyways...

I don't think a Dragoon could stay up in the air for the entire length of a turn, nor do I think they could build enough momentum to slam into the enemy as hard as they do if they're just jumping six feet or so in the air. This is why I believe it's much higher than that. Also, as Rowan said, the Jump ability is supposed to mimick the flying abilities of an actual dragon (hell, Dragoons even have wings on the back of their armor), and I don't think jumping six feet over the ground would be a very good use of a dragon's wings. -_- I just don't get why it's so easy to accept that some guy with robes and a straw hat can conjure a blast of pure energy with his hands, yet the idea of someone jumping really high into the air is so farfetched. -_-

[talon]

As for Geyzer, he has ice3. Lowering his wp and giving him ice2, would be a big nerf. As well as giving him ice1. So, yeah, it was mentioned to nerf him, although the ice-weakness thing would I suppose need it, unless the attack itself is the only time he does that ice-attack in regards.
Also, I've actually attended a martial arts event, where for an hour they explained and prove the existance of chi, or ki, or whatever you want to call it. Like they would build up energy between their hands. Can't see it, but you can feel it if you ran your hand through that space. Very warm, and kind of has a... well this part is hard to explain.. Almost a pushing, vibrant force to it, best I can do.. After seeing that (You can also find the same thing, although not as awesome on tv. I believe history or national geographics has it on now and then) 'Magic' isn't as farfetched as it would seem to be believed.. But, meh, whatever. I'll stop trying to get people to think about shit, then. >.>

[Kija]

Geyzer was not weakened because a lot of people complain. We will never change anything just because a lot of people complain. We do listen to what they say and take it into consideration, but it is the actual problems that we look at, whether they are even being complained about.

[U. Dye]

...I still say death to the people who beat him before at least L.35 then go to PoP within the same day.

A boss being "hard" is not a problem. 2-3 levels on each party member can fix that.

Hell, just think of this: people are going to whine and piss and moan about how hard they are in V8. No matter what they say or do, the fact is, they're just mad that they can't set a new record low level for beating that boss.

Summary: A hard boss does not need nerfed. The people fighting it just need to shut the hell up, waste a couple hundred Dragons, and try again.

[talon]

Didn't he get an attack and wp nerf? >.>

[Kija]

Yes, Geyzer was weakened, but it was not because people complained. After looking at his stats, battles I did with him and others that I watched, he was weakened.

The bosses in version eight will be a bit harder in sense that they are longer, but they will also break away from the one hit kill type version, so it will be better.

[U. Dye]

It'll piss people off real hard if you manage to fit 20 Geyzers on the screen. XD

[Taterz]

i know how we can make bosses challenging at any level....aside from the mind games they play >_>

i borrow this system from lunar: SSSC. in that game, the boss' strength was determined by the level of the main character (everyone gets exp, as they are revived after a victorious battle). this way, leveling will have a factor in the outcome of the fight, but that also buffs up the boss' status (new skills do not change, just the power they have).

i propose we create a system where the boss' stats have a modifier which will be found by taking the highest player's level, or by calculating the average level of a party. that way, we will end up setting a soft cap in which people will want to kill certain bosses, but also making it challenging no matter how strong we get (honestly, a lv 40 blackmage soloing geyzer? thats hardly fair to melee)

[Sarm]

Challenging at any level? Doesn't that nullify the point of leveling up in the first place? People level up to gradually make enemies less challenging. That's what the core reason behind leveling up is for, because if monsters, or just bosses, can increase their power simply because you did, then there's less of a reward to spending time playing the game.

[Kain]

taterz said:

(honestly, a lv 40 blackmage soloing geyzer? thats hardly fair to melee)

The reason for that is that on top of buffs (yes, again with the buffs, but that's not the point this time), all monsters have a defense stat that will lessen melee damage, but they have no basic resistance to magic. So, unless a mage hits an enemy with an element they're resistant to, a magic spell will always do the same range of damage to enemies, which is pretty unfair. Now that I think about it, the different types of melee damage proposed awhile back would just screw melees even more. You could say that it's balanced by the fact that melees get multiple hits, Crits, and MW's, but I think a damage total that's both high and consistent is better than a damage total that's constantly fluctuating.

[Taterz]

no, sarm, it does not entirely destroy the point of leveling. what it does is it sets a basic range that is optimum to fight the boss (say, +/- 6 levels) for the party to fight the monster. this just seems to be a thing with the "veteran" players that spend hours on end in areas just leveling to hell and back. i was in my mid 40s when i fought geyzer, which made it too easy. its this point where the BH feels the boss is simply made too easy, they start throwing more tricks at us.

just look back to all the bosses you fought. how hard was vallatio when you had a tier 2 nuker in the party? or kaug, when you had an ice 2/fire 2? geyzer? no biggie, fire 3 and osmose and he's gone. grygasz? well, he's kinda tough but all you need is sleep and heavy hitters of any level and he's gone. magora? barrier 3 and just nuke her to hell. i've seen a person get past geyzer in just a single day. where's the fun in that?


this will allow people to actually piss their pants when fighting, and not "oh just nuke and he's a goner".

[Sarm]

I found the bosses already rather challenging, even with your optimum requirements. Last I remembered, Vallatio blew a couple of characters away with his Ice2, Kaug 1-hit 4 party members one after another, Grygasz...well, duh. Geyser again was one-hitting, along with his area-ice. Magora was only not challenging in my opinion because Pearl wasn't resisted, so I (the pure MP mage) was doing the most damage of the group.

I don't quite understand what you mean by your post. You disliked the boss being too easy because you were in your mid-fourties when fighting him, where the average Geyser level is now roughly 35? Why do you seem to blame the boss because you overleveled?

[Takahashi]

Well, slightly modified, I think Tat's idea would work out. Instead of making the boss fight dependant on the highest level character, make it dependant on the average level, with a 'floor'. Like, Val's stats would initially be based on fighting against a party that is an average level of 12. If a level 11 party walks in, his power isn't boosted. If a level 13 party walks in, he's made slightly stronger.

So, a party that is 'underlevelled' will be able to make the fight easier against a boss if they level, which is how it works now. However, eventually the boss will start to grow stronger as well, discouraging the party from powerlevelling in order to make the fight a blow off.

If fights end up being too hard or too easy, then the BH can modify the 'normal' level of the boss accordingly. We can give the boss a higher level to make it take longer before they start to power up (toning down the difficulty) and give them a lower normal level to make the power up process occur sooner (ramping up difficulty). This could save time; instead of trying to figure out which abilities to add or replace, we just change a number in the boss' file, indirectly making their current abilities and stats better or worse.

[U. Dye]

takahashi said:

This could save time; instead of trying to figure out which abilities to add or replace, we just change a number in the boss' file, indirectly making their current abilities and stats better or worse.

...Wow. Before I read this part, I was thinking, "I wonder if Kija can do that... I wonder if it can even be done in DM! I mean, I know they did it in FF8, but they had a team of trained professionals working on that one!"

^ In response to myself... Amateurs built Noah's ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

[Taterz]

i dont mean that bosses are "hard" because they use one hit kills, because their moves are easily taken care of with a skill or two.

and no, i've only referred to my "overleveling" because my main experiences with them was on my ranger. however, i have redone my experiences with plenty of other characters, and each time there was never any worry of losing, despite our top hitters dying. and our top hitters were the strongest, and did plenty of the work in taking out minions/boss.

i want bosses to be based on the party, because that way it will be challenging and fun no matter who is in the party