Fast, Boost, and assorted.

[Kyou]

For those of you BH members that are balancing out the abilities and spells in the game.

Heres a thought.
Currently the second most powerful buff in the game is Fast (stat wise). Not only does the tier 1 spell give almost twice as much of an increase then boost and shield, but it does it to TWO stats. Also, I think that the hits added by a boost spell are not only redundant but over kill. The damage rating boost alone is usually enough to easily handle the monsters in your given area.

For those of you that understand better with numbers:

Current Fast1 = One ally gains 50% to battle speed and evasion speed for the duration of the battle or until dispelled; or it negates SLOW spell. This makes the ally more capable of hitting and dodging. Cannot be cast on a target already hit with a FAST spell.

Current Boost1 = One ally's attack rating is increased by 30% and maximum hits increase by 2 for the duration of the battle or until dispelled; or it negates WEAK spell. Boosted targets deal more physical damage in battle. Cannot be cast on a target already hit with a BOOST spell.

My proposal =
A.) Remove the hits added from Boost

and

B.) Halve the increase you get from both fast 1 and fast 3 and take the hits that you lost from Boost, and add them to the Fast spells.

This makes: Boost 1 = 30% damage increase, Fast 1 = 25% atk and evasion speed increase +2hits, Boost 3 = 60% damage increase, Fast 3 = 50% atk and evasion speed increase +4 hits.

My Reasons:
Here is why I think Fast is overpowered. because at the cost of 12 or 40 MP you can become the king of hits and misses, usually regardless if you add to your Agility or Dexterity. Now, this spell just enhances your ability to do it instead of creating it.

I've always had an internal strife about Boost adding hits, I just never could grasp my mind around it, it makes more sense on Fast and also justifies the decrease in percentages. (Also, it would make Quicksilver more appealing for Dragoons)

So I'm sure some of you are wondering what this would mean for War Cry and Bear Strength.

Some of you older players might remember that War Cry used to not add any hits, and that the hit bonus was added later to balance it with boost. I feel there should be a compromise and that it should only add 1 hit. Why? Why not bring down its hits to 0 like boost? Because, I feel that "Fight"ers should have the highest potential for damage, after all look at their name. Also WarCry is not a boost spell, its the Fighter going berserk and ignoring the physical limits of his body to increase his power and I can see it giving him 1 extra hit. It just doesn't make sense that Boost increases hits when all its doing in essence is increase the sharpness of a blade, or the density of a hammer, maybe increasing the recipients natural strength a little bit.

Ex: A fighter with Leadership, Warcry, Weapons Master, and Fast 3 holding an Atlas Axe would get a boost of 60% damage increase, 2 hits from the axe, 1 from Weapon Master, 1 from Warcry, and 4 from Fast 3. Making a grand total of 60% damage increase and 8 hits. I feel fighters should be the ones that set the Damage cieling, currently its knights who IMO should be more tactical meleers then raw power.

Now, on to Bear Strength. First off, how many people have a BB at ToTE? Ok, those of you that raise your hand, how much difference is there between your weak hits and your mortal wounds? About 500-800 depending on your build, correct? Thats WEAK hits to MORTAL WOUNDS. Now, just like War Cry, I see Bear Strength as being seperate from Boost, in that the BB is augmenting the muscles in his body to perform at an enhanced level. Faster and Stronger. So I really don't see a need to change Bear Strength at all. (it already pales in comparison to Boost 3 anyway)

I'd like to finish with this. I know full well most people won't take kindly to this idea, after all nearly everyone hates nerfing.

Toodles.

[Jumin]

i like it actually. it also makes sense, too. good post overall, and since you backed it up with good reasons i wouldn't mind the change if it were to happen

[Kumog]

On the boost losing hits/fast gaining them idea:

I can agree that the extra hits for boost is overpowered...in only one case really. Polearms. With how they gain 4 hits (over double the amount polearms even allow), and have such a high damage pool, it is a very large boost in power. However, I don't like the idea of Fast gaining the extra hits, because then it'd become again be considered "overpowered". For one spell making hitting so much easier AND more times, it'd be absurd. If Quicksilver were to gain +1 hit (for ground attacks only), it might become quite alluring for a dragoon to use with their limited MP, otherwise right now a goon would just wait for the WM to use Fast 2, or simply just jump-spam.

Ergo, my idea is this. Change how Boost gives hits. For instance, in the case of a weapon with many hits, like daggers, it'd give more hits than it would to staves, axes, or polearms. It would make spears and other multi-hit weapons much more appealing to use in a party situation instead of always buying the polearm. Every time I've tried comparing spears to polearms right now, spears are utterly worthless once Boost 3's 4 extra hits come into play, the polearm damage skyrockets. Now if it only gave polearms 2 hits, (boost 1 giving 1 hit), it'd be a bit more in line, and make spears seem actually usable. Currently, from my calculations, spears really are only good if you're pure str and at such a high point that the three extra hits from spear using would override the extra damage that a polearm deals.

Fighter's abilities such as War Cry and Leadership should be unchanged (other than Leadership's boost to the party going with the boost 1 rules of not giving Polearms 2 attacks). With how Fighters seem to be the more defensive class, and knights more offensive...instead of doing massive changes to them, perhaps swapping their names around would suffice faster to have it make more sense? A knight using Block to keep another safe makes a bit more sense overall than a fighter that's busy going toe-to-toe with some giant suddenly diving to block a hit from hitting the white mage.

I don't have any ideas for BBs, because I've never played one past Lirea, however, I've used fighters and dragoons quite a lot.

[Sur Realis]

I find it funny you only looked at the boosts for this stuff, rather than considering what would happen if the counteracting debuffs were changed in the same way. Note, that this is only assuming the BH will hardly edit the spell pool for most enemies.

Off the top of my head, here is what I remember can cast Slow:
Earth Elemental
Dust Demon
Air Elemental?
...Seriously, that's all I can get off the top of my head.

Weak?
Iron Guard
Lower Demon?

Ironically, Kyou, if you get the hits factor flipped from Boost/Weak to Fast/Slow, more than likely Black Belts will reign supreme as dealing the most damage, because of their hit spam; most all enemies that use Slow really aren't trained against, and if so Aurabolt ftw? Weak, without having any hits, won't do dum-diddly-freakin'-doo against their LOL 20-HIT SPAM LOLOLOL.

Then you forget that Fighters, in this game, also tend to be a more party oriented version of Knights; slightly less damage dealing, but Block and Leadership ftw? Knights, however, have like all theirs attacks based around dealing even moar damage, or killing shit faster. Sensibly enough they already are the main damage dealers, and in my opinion, not many spots where you are a melee and don't need -some- form of tactics for efficiency.

True, Fast is overpowered, but you forget that it is practically never used anyway; everyone wants to throw on Barrier, and Shield, and Forcefield first, which according to you is the least efficient. In a sense, nerfing fast as such is like saying, 'LOL ENEMIES HURT ME LOLOLOL' because of a lack of an efficient starter buff, and don't get me started how it will effect Slow. >=(

You strike a good arguement for boost, though. I'll give you that much; except you must admit that by sharpening a blade, as you put it, would make it easier for a person to cut the enemy, and further easier to recover from attacking, so it would be quicker overall in the same time or the same input. Similarly, it holds up for better natural physical perception.

I don't understand your point about the more appealing Quicksilver, neither. If there's a battle where it would be nice to throw on Quicksilver, it's just an excuse for someone to Boost the Goon while it makes a failsafe once it's out of MP. The White Mage/Red Mage should be more considering buffing other weaker members then the Dragoon which is naturally aireborn for half a worth-while battle.

/rant. Damn school bells. >_>

[Kyou]

4 hits on my BB at ToTE would only add on to about 200 damage at the most... Thats the very reason why there isn't a drastic change in Weak vs. Mortal Wounds for BBs the high number of hits makes it null so your pretty much always doing a constant damage.

Hopefully, in v8 more monsters will use status effects/spells.

As for Fighters vs. Knights. You've hit one of my favorate arguements. Currently Knights outshine Fighters in the following: Abilities, Power, and Defense. Like I said, Knights are like a tactical melee class (with area attacks and supercounters of awesomeness), They gain of one extra Vitality per level far outstrips the Fighters HP gain in terms of getting hit with physical attacks, and You've already talked about the Knights offensive prowess. Fighters can only attack 1 enemy at a time while Knights can attack many.

The only redeeming qualities for a Fighter "are" leadership and Block, but take into account that most people would prefer a regular boost over a leadership, and the MP cost, and it looks less impressive. So your left with ... Block (Which is reason enough to make a fighter). After Block the Knight outstrips the Fighter in just about every way. A boosted knight clearing out enemies can be just as effective if not more so then a fighter taking hits for a WM (and certainly any other mage). In fact, theres no purpose in blocking a RM (They have good enough defenses) a Bluemage can't heal enough to cover the Fighters HP, and a Blackmage won't be able to heal it at all, then once Barrier no longer reduces physical damage, Shield will be your only option.

IMO the increase in damage potential and giving more monsters magic are the only way to balance out Knight vs. Fighter. (But everyone would hate more magic casting monsters... then again, thats why people don't like me because I suggest things they won't like)

[Zaiyu]

And because I like percents, perhaps if this came in, Fast could increase your number of hits by a %, giving variations between, say, spears and polearms. But, to make it shy of making BB's super-overpowered, perhaps there should be a cap as to the number of hits it can give?

[daekdroom]

Fast 1/3 is overpowered, we know that. But it's used to increase evasion (not everytime from melee chars). So it's useless to increase hits. A redution to 40/80% boost (in Fast 1 and Fast 3, respectively) would balance it, i think.

About Boost, a change of number to percentage of hits (instead of 2 hits of boost 1, it increase 30%) would balance it too. People been complaining Goons were overpowered boosted by Boost 3

[Sur Realis]

kyou said:

4 hits on my BB at ToTE would only add on to about 200 damage at the most... Thats the very reason why there isn't a drastic change in Weak vs. Mortal Wounds for BBs the high number of hits makes it null so your pretty much always doing a constant damage.

Hopefully, in v8 more monsters will use status effects/spells.

As for Fighters vs. Knights. You've hit one of my favorate arguements. Currently Knights outshine Fighters in the following: Abilities, Power, and Defense. Like I said, Knights are like a tactical melee class (with area attacks and supercounters of awesomeness), They gain of one extra Vitality per level far outstrips the Fighters HP gain in terms of getting hit with physical attacks, and You've already talked about the Knights offensive prowess. Fighters can only attack 1 enemy at a time while Knights can attack many.

The only redeeming qualities for a Fighter "are" leadership and Block, but take into account that most people would prefer a regular boost over a leadership, and the MP cost, and it looks less impressive. So your left with ... Block (Which is reason enough to make a fighter). After Block the Knight outstrips the Fighter in just about every way. A boosted knight clearing out enemies can be just as effective if not more so then a fighter taking hits for a WM (and certainly any other mage). In fact, theres no purpose in blocking a RM (They have good enough defenses) a Bluemage can't heal enough to cover the Fighters HP, and a Blackmage won't be able to heal it at all, then once Barrier no longer reduces physical damage, Shield will be your only option.

IMO the increase in damage potential and giving more monsters magic are the only way to balance out Knight vs. Fighter. (But everyone would hate more magic casting monsters... then again, thats why people don't like me because I suggest things they won't like)

But you aren't thinking very openly. One: Rampage ftw. Two: BMs can deal serious damage, real fast, but die fast. Three: A lot of RMs complain about dying before they can get fully buffed. Four: Blue Mages can debuff the army of enemies while the Fighter takes a few meandering hits. Or, maybe even Blocking a Thief or Ranger while they get ready to spam shit upon the enemies, just as a fail-safe. Fighters don't HAVE to block for the entire damn battle, y'know.

Now, let's try this again. Blocking Rangers, Blue Mages, Red Mages, and White Mages = Rampage spam if you can work it right. Blocking a Black Mage = Nuke/Psychostorm/Elemental spam, which comes in handy at Mona lacking a White Mage, perhaps? Just throwing a few ways I'd use Fighter's block for winz.

As for Knights, of course they have bettar Powar and Defanse. They are KNIGHTS for God's sake. They are -made- to beat the shit out of things. And it kinda helps when most builds for Knights involve mucho Str, whereas a lot of people view Fighters as block-bitches, rather than characters that can potentially do ~3 Lunges in one turn for like 5 turns in a row. (Yes, 5. Think it out. (And actually, I'm not too sure, but if Battle Speed hits just right, they might be potential'd for a whopping 15 Lunges in a single damn turn. That beats the shit out of Endless Rebuttal.) They get WarCry at Level 3, which is like 7 levels sooner than Boost, and practically never need healing unless underleveled.

Fighters are like Thieves. People don't use them for their true potential. Thieves to 99% of people are run-slaves, whereas they have the potential to do so much more (as proven by my Thief and his relentless Pick Pocket-spamz, and odd ability to make pwnsome comebacks out of the blue.) Your thinking Fighters are undermined by the Knight is like everyone else thinking Thieves undermined by... everything else. Just because their use isn't flat out obvious doesn't make then useless.

While I'm on the topic, Thieves kick ass, and are a pwnsome member even without SR. I'll keep the reason to myself, though, because no one would believe me.

[Kyou]

One of my highest level chars is a Fighter, I use it WAAAAAYYYY more then my Knight. Like I said, Block is awesome. Yes Rampage is awesome too. (Lunge itself not so much) Chop is cool. I like the current Fighters. My point was, that since they only attack one enemy at a time (Rampage manipulation doesn't count) They should be "very" good at it, and Fyi, my Fighter is more about attacking then blocking. It didn't say blocking was bad, I didn't mean it that way. But your still proving my point, all Fighters have going for them is Block, and Rampage (which I forgot to mention earlier, thanks).

The thing is, Knights don't even have to try to outshine a fighter in defense, they pretty already do. All knights have to worry about damage wise is getting hit with Magic Attacks, which make up a whopping percent of about 30% of the monsters attacks. Fighters on the other hand, have to deal with both, and yes, Fighters DO need healing, unless they're defending every turn, or they are overleveled for the area anyway. Also, 80% of the small monsters currently in this game either suck or are skipped. People don't try go out and look for the semi-difficult fights, they stick to the easy stuff, thats why it may seem like fighters never need healing. Fact of the matter is, they're slow, they're going to get hit. They're defense is ok, not superwonderfully awesome like a knights, thats why people joke around and call them "Marshmallows".


And for the record, most Redmages die before they fully buff themselves because A.) they do it in a bad order, B.) they don't realize that they DON'T have to fully buff themselves half the time and are killed on those extra turns. C.) they're freaking idiots. How in the hell do you DIE as a Redmage?, Redmages can surpass all classes in 1 thing, survivability. People complaining about their redmages dieing should delete their RM and restart on a different class, because they obviously have no clue what they're doing.

SPOILER: Click to show

If your talking IC or Tote, I understand what your saying to a degree.

SPOILER: Click to show

p.s. Your little comment about 15 lunges would require at least 6 people with cure (or HS) and a lot of luck.

[lordphoenix]

romashi said:

But you aren't thinking very openly. One: Rampage ftw. Two: BMs can deal serious damage, real fast, but die fast. Three: A lot of RMs complain about dying before they can get fully buffed. Four: Blue Mages can debuff the army of enemies while the Fighter takes a few meandering hits. Or, maybe even Blocking a Thief or Ranger while they get ready to spam shit upon the enemies, just as a fail-safe. Fighters don't HAVE to block for the entire damn battle, y'know.

Now, let's try this again. Blocking Rangers, Blue Mages, Red Mages, and White Mages = Rampage spam if you can work it right. Blocking a Black Mage = Nuke/Psychostorm/Elemental spam, which comes in handy at Mona lacking a White Mage, perhaps? Just throwing a few ways I'd use Fighter's block for winz.

As for Knights, of course they have bettar Powar and Defanse. They are KNIGHTS for God's sake. They are -made- to beat the shit out of things. And it kinda helps when most builds for Knights involve mucho Str, whereas a lot of people view Fighters as block-bitches, rather than characters that can potentially do ~3 Lunges in one turn for like 5 turns in a row. (Yes, 5. Think it out. (And actually, I'm not too sure, but if Battle Speed hits just right, they might be potential'd for a whopping 15 Lunges in a single damn turn. That beats the shit out of Endless Rebuttal.) They get WarCry at Level 3, which is like 7 levels sooner than Boost, and practically never need healing unless underleveled.

Fighters are like Thieves. People don't use them for their true potential. Thieves to 99% of people are run-slaves, whereas they have the potential to do so much more (as proven by my Thief and his relentless Pick Pocket-spamz, and odd ability to make pwnsome comebacks out of the blue.) Your thinking Fighters are undermined by the Knight is like everyone else thinking Thieves undermined by... everything else. Just because their use isn't flat out obvious doesn't make then useless.

While I'm on the topic, Thieves kick ass, and are a pwnsome member even without SR. I'll keep the reason to myself, though, because no one would believe me.

15 lunges is really not a considerable merit, because like kyou said, it would require assloads of healers and too much luck. We are speaking in terms of practicality, not LOL XTREME POTENSHIL. Also, thieves ARE undermined by everything else. They are outshone by every other melee in melee combat. Your thief's "odd ability to make pwnsome comebacks out of the blue" isn't even relevant to a discussion of true usefulness, and pick pocket isn't all that wonderful to a party. Now for their other abilities. First, the thief has to hide. He should NEVER use camo, because it's shit, as has been discussed at length.

Now, while hidden, we have Backstab, Bloody murder, and pressure attack. Backstab, if it connects, will give a guaranteed critical, which, when stacked against other meleers, means you'll be hitting for just about what their normal hits are. That's normal hits, and you'll still be falling a bit short. Also, if you miss, you lose hide, and have to recast. Not that great.

Bloody Murder is the arguably inferior bastard child of Divide and Rub. It runs off of percentage chance like rub does, offering less chance to connect on small mobs (10%), and more chance on large mobs (10% again). However, it has divide's trait of costing no mp if missing. Now, it is inferior because it ruins what little MP thieves have, which is even worse than on knights considering how much mp they need to function, where as knights can spam "LOL ATTK, DOUBLE STRIKKU" when they run dry. Also, divide runs off of -15% accuracy, which means fast 3 makes it a near sure fire way to dispatch foes. There is no such boost available for bloody murder.

Last we get to pressure attack. 150% boost over normal attack power (not looking quite as pretty as backstab for the most part) and puts monsters to sleep without fail. The guaranteed sleep is attractive, but not so much when stacked beside a nicely targeted sleep 2 (5x5 AoE and boosted odds to stay asleep? yes plz) or stop.

On top of all this is the chance of hide fading out with every attack aimed at the thief after the third round. Not to mention the guaranteed fade on wounded state, which magic casting enemies are always capable of furnishing with glee.

The fact is, rdy, thieves currently have nothing to contribute to a party that another class can't do far better, outside of running like hell.

[Sur Realis]

I don't know about that Phoe. You are right about their skills, they are LOL UBER SUBPAR or however you'd put it, but they do have two things worthwhile to contribute to the party. 1) They can absorb misses. Kyou's HP/Agi Thief was a rather good success, and I modified the build to include a bit extra Str, but in all reality it's there for enemies to wail at and miss, or cast magic on instead of the Black Belt or Knight. 2) They tend to be very useful for taking out enemies that the BB, Knight, Fighter, etc.. just didn't get enough damage to kill, so that the BB, Knight, Fighter, etc.. can concentrate on the next full-HP monster (or near full) while the Thief kills it, and with being the fastest, usually killing it before the monster gets a turn. Throw a Fast on a Hidden Thief and they can just defend and absorb misses and wait until an enemy with like 100 HP left crops up and Backstab it. That's how I've used my Thief so far, more or less, and it's worked fine. Amazing how much time it's saved in the long run.

[InfiniteWisdom]

okay so its my 1st post since last time hahaha!! weee >_>
Summarizing up since i have other posts based on ideas, TAKING out stuff is just ugly so thats the only reason it sounds bad. That is my opinion thought but changing things up for the better sounds fair. Of course the word boost seems like invigorating power so the hits seem plausible.
So hooray to that wee!
Overall: look at it like this, people can always have the advantage without having any buffers so hooray ^_^
~InfiniteWisdom