New Enlightenment

[Hiroshima]

or should i say lack thereof? with the altered enlightenment you no long gain a boost of 50 million experience points, to me this is outrageous, i have a whitemage, one to counter my primary (Hiroshima) and he has lost 11 levels, he's utterly useless without his Tier3 spells at his disposal here. he can die in a single turn because he's no fast enouh/not enough health. He just leveled up, in a 30 minute ambush, now if i get 6 more of those, i level up once more. ONCE. 3 hours? for one level? no. the battles wouldn't last as long with that boost in experience and levels, it could take me around the same time to get one level at 50 with a good party at around the same level or above, than it does to get one level from 40-41 with a party of 40s..... Thats not right. the EXP boost shouldn't be nerfed, the EXP gain from battles here should be boosted.

[InfiniteWisdom]

Umm. its hard for me to take sides, but changes can sometimes cause a scandal which leads to depression and w/e. I myself have lost levels, the only way to deal with this "agony" is to understand the reason why it was done. It can be inferred that this idea was imposed since V8 is comming and it is needed so Magora can actually be killed and so the storyline takes hold within a needed basis for continuity. Knowing that changes happened means adjusting to them, so its a thing that says, deal with it o.o cause you have to understand that one goes to Tote at a high level ;p and doesnt just wanaa go to get a boost that can ease training. The idea is different and a little bit hard to take in and comprehend, but sometimes change is for the better...

[Hiroshima]

my whitemage reached ToTE at a low level but not to ease training, to further my progress through the game and to accompany my other whitemage there, i did not get enlightened with this ever happening in mind, with my stay in the brotherhood, the removal of the Exp boost was not brought up until recent events including those who did not enlighten themselves became a prominent group. frankly i blame them. and not so much that i'm whining, i'm ticked off. it doesn't make sense and its absurd, why punish the whole for misdeeds done by the few?

[Kija]

The removal of the experience is not a punishment. It is to better balance the this area.

With current level system, it did not work well. At high levels, the level requirement is very high, so we cannot expect people to really gain anymore levels once getting enlightened. And once you do, you pretty much can just walk right through the other area and kill Magora right away. There was no standard progression beyond the experience boost, nor could there. So, it was decided that, atleast until the new level system is out, that the experience boost be removed.

The beckoning part of the enlightened update was in response to the growing trend of people not enlightening, as it created a big problem that was only getting worse.

As in any area, you get there, explore, and then eventually defeat the boss and continue. The Pits of Pain was the only area that by the time you got there, you were pretty much already through the area, since you could just walk right through.

It is true that it was brought up at the same time with the group problem, but this was mostly because it was only then that enlightenment was mostly discussed on possible changes. It does not mean that it was changed in response to it; it simply means that the initial response allowed for further discussion in the same category.

[Bolt]

If it keeps people from just buyin the equipment then lvlin at mon or w/e I'm all for it. Kinda hated seein people jsut come through ToTE and leave after obtainin the equipment or just the experence

[Takahashi]

Kija covered many things that I'd had in mind, but to expand on the subject...

I've heard opinions from a few ToTE-class players that, when combined with my own views on things, led me to realizing that right around the Monastery/ToTE area of the game, there's a disconnect. Starting out, you have a relatively smooth progression in terms of 'plot' progress and levelling. Working up to Val you rarely are forced to grind for levels. The most frequent cases where grinding is necessary tend to involve trying to go it alone or being in a two (or even three) person party with poor synergy between the classes. Kaug is pretty much the same; unless you have bad chemistry or a lack of teammates, you're usually at an appropriate level to combat him by the time you actually reach him.

Grygasz and the area he lords over is the point (IMO) where things start to get out of whack... and they only get worse once you first arrive in Hassen. When you left the Cathedral, you're at just the right level to handle the early sections of DM. When you leave DM, you're not necessarily at just the right level to handle the weakest enemies in SS, but you're pretty close. When you leave Ruoze, you're even farther from the right level unless you waited until your late 20s to kill Grygasz. Even then you can still quickly slip into a 'way over your head' position (more on that below).

On top of this, it seemed that right around Ruoze, the primary purpose of parties wasn't so much to cover any possible holes in battle utility as they were to allow people to get to the boss as quickly as possible. What this led to were parties that were a few levels too low for Grygasz, then parties that arrive in the Monastery with levels anywhere from the upper 20s to the mid 30s (i.e., FAR too low to consistently survive in the nearest Hunting Ground without a nearly full party or with the help of players in the low 40s at the least).

I feel that part of this 'get me good stuff and get it to me five hours ago' mentality comes from the dangling carrot that was the massive XP bonus you can get from Enlightenment. When you have a point in the game where you get a massive amount of XP (basically for free), that encourages people to bust their asses to get to said point as fast as possible, consequences be damned. Part of it comes from the ability for Thieves to augment said mentality by ignoring all non-ambushes in order to get a party from checkpoint to checkpoint in very little time. With Silent Retreat, why stay in an area any longer than you have to, especially when doing so delays your arriving at the point of Enlightenment?

In the end, a 'reward' that encourages people to strand themselves in an area (or areas) that they are ill-equipped to handle unless they have said reward is to blame. When it is not an easy task to handle an ambush in the Monastery section unless you have the right party (or at least 36 levels), I should think that the challenge an area (technically two areas) ahead of it offers should not be kind to anyone in their late 30s, early 40s or even mid 40s. Proclaiming that PoP is too hard for level 40 players is similar to complaining that Ruoze is too hard for level 18 players, or that the Monastery section of Hassen is too hard for level 25 players.

That is the entire point, because those areas are intended for a noticably higher level range. All this change to Enlightenment has done (in my eyes) is highlight the problem of some players getting too far in the game too fast. Their levels and powers aren't up to speed with the levels and powers of the monsters in the area(s) they're in, and it ends up as a kick to the teeth, moreso now that the carrot they snatched didn't give them the reward they could use in order to make up for said early arrival.

[U. Dye]

Although I can understand why the 50mil EXP would be taken out, I can't say it pleases me. At this point, I'm wondering if I should even bother trying to level again, since it seems like I lose my level every time I hit 63. It's like a fight to keep my levels at this point.

My own complaints aside... Was it REALLY necessary to jack 50mil EXP from the people who were already in ToTE when it was removed? Some of those people MIGHT have been the... audience that was being referenced in this discussion, but plenty of those people weren't. People like Thorn, Bolt, PR...

Well, on the bright side, Kija, you also jacked your only given reason for not running with me in ToTE. You probably lost a level too. Get on your BM once in a while, now. No WAY you're gonna overlevel in 3 hours now.

[Kain]

takahashi said:

I feel that part of this 'get me good stuff and get it to me five hours ago' mentality comes from the dangling carrot that was the massive XP bonus you can get from Enlightenment. When you have a point in the game where you get a massive amount of XP (basically for free), that encourages people to bust their asses to get to said point as fast as possible, consequences be damned. Part of it comes from the ability for Thieves to augment said mentality by ignoring all non-ambushes in order to get a party from checkpoint to checkpoint in very little time. With Silent Retreat, why stay in an area any longer than you have to, especially when doing so delays your arriving at the point of Enlightenment?

In the end, a 'reward' that encourages people to strand themselves in an area (or areas) that they are ill-equipped to handle unless they have said reward is to blame. When it is not an easy task to handle an ambush in the Monastery section unless you have the right party (or at least 36 levels), I should think that the challenge an area (technically two areas) ahead of it offers should not be kind to anyone in their late 30s, early 40s or even mid 40s. Proclaiming that PoP is too hard for level 40 players is similar to complaining that Ruoze is too hard for level 18 players, or that the Monastery section of Hassen is too hard for level 25 players.

I think it's pretty unfair (and wrong) to blame the Enlightenment bonus for people going into areas before they're supposed to. For one, it assumes that these players already know about Enlightenment (I've talked to people who were in Mon on more than one occasion who didn't even know what it was). I think the real reason behind people going to places underleveled is that they don't feel like grinding to gain levels, so they stand on the backs, if you will, of people who do grind. It's just like the whole powerleveling thing that was a problem a while back: some people want all the perks without having to do any of the work and because of that, they get into this cycle of being underleveled and relying on stronger people to temporarily fix the problem for them.

I do think that IC, at least, needs some rebalancing so that people aren't left stranded in Mon after killing Geyzer. Geyzer in his current form is such a pushover--all you really need to kill him is Barrier 3, Boost 3, Fire 3, and a WM or two. Hell, you don't even need that if you know what you're doing--my Ranger and BLM killed Geyzer in a party that consisted of three Rangers, an RM, a BLM, and one other class. Making Geyzer harder (from what I've seen of V8 Geyzer, he's more tedious than hard--his first phase, anyways) and increasing the exp rates around IC might help people make the trip through PoP while making them feel like they have a better reason for gaining levels (Enlightenment just isn't the same without the 50 mil =\). (Actually, I think people being stranded is part of a much larger problem involving the lack of variety in the game--go to an area, grind, kill the boss, repeat--but that isn't something that's going to be solved so quickly.)

Back on the subject of Enlightenment, I was against the idea of taking away the 50 mil, but I think you should at least bump up the exp rates there to compensate, at least until the new exp system rolls around (I know you talked about putting the 50 mil back in once the new exp system was put into place, Kija, but by your own logic that isn't likely to happen unless Magora is given the power of a mad god.)

[U. Dye]

Technically, Mag DOES have the power of a mad god. Not ALL of it, but some of it.

[Kain]

gamer201 said:

Technically, Mag DOES have the power of a mad god. Not ALL of it, but some of it.

I realized that as I typed it, but...meh. I think everyone who actually cares enough to read through that whole post knows what I'm getting at. >_>

[Takahashi]

kain said:

I think it's pretty unfair (and wrong) to blame the Enlightenment bonus for people going into areas before they're supposed to. For one, it assumes that these players already know about Enlightenment (I've talked to people who were in Mon on more than one occasion who didn't even know what it was). I think the real reason behind people going to places underleveled is that they don't feel like grinding to gain levels, so they stand on the backs, if you will, of people who do grind. It's just like the whole powerleveling thing that was a problem a while back: some people want all the perks without having to do any of the work and because of that, they get into this cycle of being underleveled and relying on stronger people to temporarily fix the problem for them.

That's not a great deal different from my issue with Enlightenment then; at best, that's just an offshoot of the 'Silent Retreat means I get to an area I shouldn't be in' part of my issue without the reward of Enlightenment itself. You don't really HAVE to grind in order to reach the Monastery if you have a good party and don't make a mad dash to it (again, possibly with the aid of a Thief). You don't really HAVE to grind in order to defeat Grygasz; if anything, any grinding related to him is usually so that in the case of an ambush in IC, you're not sodomized without lube (at worst you're sodomized WITH lube).

Grinding seems to come about when people plan two or three steps ahead in order to improve their chances of surviving fights they probably shouldn't be getting into in the first place. There aren't that many points in the game where you're forced to grind in order to survive the section you're currently in if you've been avoiding speedrunning through areas. Even the jump from DM to Ruoze (a fairly minor one) can be handled with relatively little bloodshed by taking a sidetrack into Ranook for its plot point and 'reward'. By the time you've collected it, you're at a prime starting level for Southern Skyre, Anara and Ruoze... and so on.

In the end, it seems to be less a problem with how much XP monsters give as it is with how much work players may be willing to put in in order to handle those monsters. Sitting around and building levels will make it easier to win fights (eventually leading to more XP and levels), as will hoping that someone will let you sponge off of them, as will min-maxing and going with the 'best' possible stat builds and/or party combinations.

kain said:

I do think that IC, at least, needs some rebalancing so that people aren't left stranded in Mon after killing Geyzer. Geyzer in his current form is such a pushover--all you really need to kill him is Barrier 3, Boost 3, Fire 3, and a WM or two. Hell, you don't even need that if you know what you're doing--my Ranger and BLM killed Geyzer in a party that consisted of three Rangers, an RM, a BLM, and one other class. Making Geyzer harder (from what I've seen of V8 Geyzer, he's more tedious than hard--his first phase, anyways) and increasing the exp rates around IC might help people make the trip through PoP while making them feel like they have a better reason for gaining levels (Enlightenment just isn't the same without the 50 mil =\). (Actually, I think people being stranded is part of a much larger problem involving the lack of variety in the game--go to an area, grind, kill the boss, repeat--but that isn't something that's going to be solved so quickly.)

Again, if people weren't in a hurry to GET to the Monastery, their chances of being overwhelmed once they reach it probably won't be nearly as high as they currently are. Scurrying to the boss of any area ASAP rarely works out. Trying to go straight to Val when you first create your character will get you killed. Trying to go straight to Kaug off of killing Val might get you killed, and it definitely will if you run from every fight between DM's entrance and Frothy McTroll himself. Trying to run to Grygasz will most likely get you killed. Trying to run to Geyzer is guaranteed to get you killed before you even reach him (possibly well before you reach him).

There's a pattern here.

kain said:

Back on the subject of Enlightenment, I was against the idea of taking away the 50 mil, but I think you should at least bump up the exp rates there to compensate, at least until the new exp system rolls around (I know you talked about putting the 50 mil back in once the new exp system was put into place, Kija, but by your own logic that isn't likely to happen unless Magora is given the power of a mad god.)

I personally was for the idea of adjusting the stat and resist bonuses of Enlightenment more than anything based on the class of the character being Enlightened (I think I discussed something along those lines with Rand)... but were I still in the BH, I would not have been against a reduction (even a heavy one) to the XP bonus. As I had noted before, I was never thrilled with the idea of a reward that can instantly turn players woefully underprepared for the area(s) ahead into ones that can handle it.

However, there is the problem of some players who did get to ToTE at a reasonable level, and the XP change most likely means they're being forced back into Junuli. Being moved back into an area they are too strong for, even before Enlightenment, is a raw deal. In that respect, I understand why the XP bonus going away would be seen as unfair.

[Hiroshima]

Excuse me, 1) i've been in PoP a longer than most people with Hiro, he lost two levels, and being underleveled in PoP at high 30s? yea, but it's impossible for me to go to Mona when i can't party with non-enligtens. i'm fucked. also, Mona becomes grinding before PoP is bearable, you say mid 40s? if you trained in Mona until mid-high 40s, you've been there very long..that's not right. to grind in one are only to grind in the next. yes, it happens obviously, but when i say grind, i mean spend 3 hours to get one level, when you nee 5-6 to even be a POSSBLE threat to the next area's monsters, that's just too long.. I do not rush to an area because i do not want to grind so much as i know, yes, theres an enlightenment, 50mil exp, okay, i go from underlevel but avg in one area, to about right level in the new area, no mass grinding, not until i've got nothing left to do... again, my lvl 40 WM would not be 'underleveled' without that 50mil loss, and he can't party wth Mona'rs....not to mention as an underleveled WHITEMAGE he's screwed most battles... it's just, not right, you get power from a god, you get powerful, HP/Resistance/Stat boost/EXP BOOST. it fits.

[Takahashi]

Fair enough then. If players are getting stranded (and they are), there are a few workable solutions.

- Increase the XP that the monsters in the 'new' area give to improve the risk/reward ratio in the player's favor. (Plausible and it would aid everyone who is post-Enlightenment, especially those who risk being stranded again otherwise)
- Bring back the XP bonus for Enlightenment (Return to the status quo; one step back and one step forward doesn't thrill me, but it would appear the argument can be made that you don't fix something that isn't really broken)
- Reduce the power of monsters that show up in the first section of PoP (without touching their XP) so that new arrivals aren't atomized, but keep the power of the monsters in the 'worst' part relatively strong so that people are discouraged from trying to bull rush to Magora. (A little trickier, but it would give people who are currently stranded a chance to get a foothold; those who are already past Magora aren't hugely affected since they swat the best PoP has to offer as is; those in between can continue to cut their teeth on the best that Magora has to offer or back up a bit to see if the 'weak' troops are more appealing for the moment)
- A mix of the first and second or second and third; bring back a bit of the XP bonus while making monsters easier to handle and/or worth more. (Might be the best approach due to versatility and more open-ended progress opportunities)
- Something else. (Hell if I know off of the top of my head)

[Rand]

An experience boost is not necessary to begin with. I'm sad that I forgot to check the forums a few days back and see this sooner. Yes, Taka, we discussed many points of this together, and I mean to again next we're both on. Anyway. You say that a blessing from a god is supposed to give you EXP boosts as well? Let's recap.

--You gain HP, and MP if you're a mage-type.

--You gain Magic Resistance.

--You gain in all of your stats.

If that isn't enough for you RIGHT THERE to handle, with a party, the monsters you face, then guess what....either you have a stupid party, you're doing something wrong...or maybe you shouldn't be there yet.

Yes, nearly everyone DOES have a "Rush me the hell outta here" idea not the second they step into the Ice Caverns, no...more like the second they step off of the boat into Hassen-held lands. That, coupled with the fact that they rush off to get Enlightened so they can gain a shit-ton of levels is not right. People, for as much as the bonuses, perhaps, should want Enlightenment for the story pro. Not so you can enter the Pits of Pain and *Instantly* not have to fight a single battle in most cases before heading straight on to Magora. Personally, I applaud those people who didn't get Enlightened before.

Before you grab your torch and pitchforks and head in my direction, think about this...yes, it changed the ability of some people to party. But what else did it do? It caused them to have to fight for their levels at that area. And without the bonuses granted by Nexus, no less. In light of everything, I actually applaud those players for pushing themselves to a challenge and showing it could be done, party problems notwithstanding.

Here's the run-down of a lot of people's complaints on the EXP, whether you'll admit it or not--- this way, you can't just rush right on to Magora afterward and kill her. You have to earn your EXP and try hard to get your levels in this area, just like all the other areas, to kill her. IT IS NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER AREA. The EXP values may need amending, yes, that MIGHT be true. Might. But complaining simply because you can't loltrain your party straight to a boss upon standing upon the area's soil is a pretty sad cry.

And, the EXP was removed from the players already holding Enlightenment to make the balance change equal for everyone. If not, people who hadn't enlightened yet, and people with as-of-yet unenlightened characters, would bitch and moan at the difference and the unfairness of THAT. Does no one think about these things? Changes occur to test balance, balance tests show flaws in strategies and the way things are meant to be played out, and balance must be meted EQUALLY between ALL AFFECTED PLAYERS. It's that simple. You didn't need experience boosts for Vallatio, Kaug, Grygasz, or Geyzer. You don't need it now. Not with how things are. And never forget the new areas yet to be unleashed. Just because something is like that now...does not mean it may be tomorrow. Keep a weather eye out for shifts. If you don't you'll drown on the shoals and be forgotten.

Final point: The experience boost was, perhaps, a way to entice people to get to that area at the time. It's usefulness, at this point in time, is gone, and now you have to do things the way you've always done it. And, most people know about enlightenment. Those who don't don't need to be there yet anyway, in my experience.

[Hiroshima]

and for those of us who know the story, who have played through this game more times than they can remember? i don't run characters through simply to skip the story line and gain shit-tons of experince and levels, i do it simply to do it, it's fun to play through, fight the bosses over, etc. i know this storyline, i've talked to every damn NPC i ToTE (Mahn made us (the first people to reach ToTE)...I've talked to every NPC that is story-line related. The experience was never a reason for me to get there. It happened to be a lovely bonus, and, now because i'd prefer to grind once at the 'end' of a game as opposed to twice, just before the end area, and at the end area, i'm stuck there because the EXP isn't enough to level quickly in comparison to the EXP jumps experienced in SS after DM. for example, you could over-level in DM, kill kaug no sweat, (party of 8 for arguement's sake), you skip over GY and head straight for SS, you're all at about 20-22. You're FIRST battle in Ruoze or SS, chances are if someone hasn't leveled, they're damn close, it doesn't take 3 hours to get a single level, it takes 3 minutes. Part of this is due to the EXP given, and later on, the time is due to EXP required, yes, i know, the EXP system is under construction, or will be, but still, something needs to be done, if you keep the EXP out of enlightenment? fine by me, if the EXP req or EXP gain (from battles) is fixed. but it can't stay like this, too many people are already in ToTE and have been affected, or will be affected.

[Mahn]

I posted this in the server over Wsay many times and I guess I will post it here.

Boo hoo. Cry me a damn river. Get used to it or leave. It was made for the better of FFTHG and the game. If you can't understand that, maybe you shouldn't be here. Discussion is fine but whining and complaining, will change nothing. Nor, would it change period until V8 is released. So sit back and enjoy the game.

[Hiroshima]

last i looked, this was more of a discussion than plain whining..

[Bolt]

Wow all this for the lost of XP. Really, thats all we're losing. Its not like we're losing the ENTIRE bonus. Sure you lost a level or two big whoop. If theres somethin planned then by all means do what you need to do. I've lost two levels on Bolt and 3 on Dark Dragon. I don't care really, and don't even bring up the point I'm never on either. As long as you're able to kill things in PoP you shouldn't be complaining still. I for one am not complaining because I can't duo near the ToTE hole, since thieves are generally weak and bluemages can't heal that easily.

Just take the whole thing and just be happy. I know this is somewhat late and all but meh, I just figured I'd get my point across.

[Takahashi]

hiroshima said:

and for those of us who know the story, who have played through this game more times than they can remember? i don't run characters through simply to skip the story line and gain shit-tons of experince and levels, i do it simply to do it, it's fun to play through, fight the bosses over, etc. i know this storyline, i've talked to every damn NPC i ToTE (Mahn made us (the first people to reach ToTE)...I've talked to every NPC that is story-line related. The experience was never a reason for me to get there. It happened to be a lovely bonus, and, now because i'd prefer to grind once at the 'end' of a game as opposed to twice, just before the end area, and at the end area, i'm stuck there because the EXP isn't enough to level quickly in comparison to the EXP jumps experienced in SS after DM. for example, you could over-level in DM, kill kaug no sweat, (party of 8 for arguement's sake), you skip over GY and head straight for SS, you're all at about 20-22. You're FIRST battle in Ruoze or SS, chances are if someone hasn't leveled, they're damn close, it doesn't take 3 hours to get a single level, it takes 3 minutes. Part of this is due to the EXP given, and later on, the time is due to EXP required, yes, i know, the EXP system is under construction, or will be, but still, something needs to be done, if you keep the EXP out of enlightenment? fine by me, if the EXP req or EXP gain (from battles) is fixed. but it can't stay like this, too many people are already in ToTE and have been affected, or will be affected.

Not to be a bother and all, but for those who have been through the game several times and/or made enough characters to cover each class twice, it can easily be a massive pile of tedium. There's only so many times you can run through an area (areas) before it becomes less of a gaming experience and more of a "running on a treadmill" experience.

I've been through Southern Kreland enough times to where I nearly have the monster stats completely memorized. Same goes for DM, Ranook, Ruoze and even IC. If my only extensive experience with ToTE and beyond wasn't on an early v7 build that I occasionally goof around with, I'd likely be as disgusted/bored with that section too. I don't really play these days for anything more than to relieve boredom; the 'glory days' of logging in and finding things to be like a brand new world are dead.

In other words, for some players (myself included) there's no real thrill any more. They've 'beaten' the game so many times that it's just a matter of going through the motions. Losing the Enlightenment XP penalty sucks no matter what (more/less so for certain players), but in the end I doubt it's nearly as traumatic a change as you make it out to be. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the game continued to move on with a minimal long-term negative impact due to this change.

[Rand]

Never fear. A lot of things will need revision, I imagine. You'll get to see new things yet

And what level is this other whitemage of yours, Ryan? Personally, I think you're *discussing* this change in your playing style simply because you've never done it before. Lots of things are still being done to make new areas available, change a lot of systems in battle...and then even MORE stuff outside of battles and where they take place. Just accept it for now and wait for the changes yet to come. Honestly, it's not going to kill you to lose an instant-gratification of stat-gain spam via 10 level-ups. Whatever things may be right now, you KNOW they won't stay like that forever.

[Sandlight]

You should do what I do about the situation. Just remember that other people lost experience too and that you're not the only one. Everybody is affected by this.

[Bolt]

Sand wins

[Hiroshima]

he dropped to lvl 39 Rand, and Sand, i'm not "discussing/argueing/complaining/whining" for my own sake, it's for other people as well...

[Rand]

39, and in PoP. When you yourself said to begin with that you took an under leveled whitemage into the area, knowing he was under leveled, with the experience boost in mind to counter that, whatever your primary reasonings for it.

That right there says it all if you'd only analyze what you just said, and everything else discussed here. Also, people can fight their own battles and state their own opinions. They do not need you to do it for them. One person stating it is many's beliefs on a public forum does not bring about change, revision, or even credible believability. Only you and Kain have mentioned this so far, and mainly do the fact that you lost levels...which would be obvious anyway if the boost is removed. (I DO think some things in IC and on need to be rethought, but we'll come to that as we may.) As Wisdom said, you have to understand why it was done. Discussing a change without wondering why or waiting to see any follow-up changes is stupid. I'm sorry if that sounds rude or harsh, but you have to think beyond what's in front of your face, especially with a game under development. You should know that as well as anyone, Ryan. Try getting that whitemage back in PoP when he's at the level he's generally supposed to be, and you may not have as many problems.

[talon]

Was reading through this, and a thought occured.. Wouldn't you say Pop and IC were somewhat similar in the rates of monsters? I've noticed people look at DM, IC, and Pop the same, and SK and SS differently. You don't suppose a party that can kill an IC1, at the beginning, to survive against the dragons around Mona, right? Just like how you don't suppose a group that can take on the imps, salamanders, and fire giants to be able to take on Pop dragons without any problems, right? They are hunting grounds, that increase in difficulty as you travel through them, and yet in so many posts it is sounding like from one end to the other, both IC and Pop monsters never grow in difficulty or challenge, as if one area of fights is as easy as the previous.. I guess it kind of goes with part of Taka's post, about running to the next destination of easy saving and bonus, be it blessment or equipment, and the 'reduce the power of the monsters at the beginning of pop'. You know, the already weak ones (imps, salamanders, fire giants). Actually, that's kind of funny.. Most people are dying to the dragons, and the lower demons with boost, and so forth. At least, those are what get the biggest complaints, dragons and demons. The ES's are only dangerous with rub, they don't kill as often. But the fact of the matter is, those killing off the people that are having complaints, or the alts of people with complaints are right around the hole of pop is quote noticable the 3rd installment of enemies. Third out of five.. Just something I thought I'd point out.

This is why I don't run from battles, nor stay with a single party that does. >.> I judge how good I am or not in terms of strength with the fights, as well as gather what experience I can to make the fights further on easier. If I find my breaking point, I stay there, not push further. I have actually stopped traversing IC halfway through IC2 to level up, because whatever higher power there may be knows I would of had my ass handed back to me with the upcoming monsters.

[Takahashi]

For me, it's not the thought that IC and PoP monsters don't pick up in power as you get further in; they do actually scale reasonably well. It's that at that point of the game, monsters are finally starting to get outright mean. So, a skill like Silent Retreat means you can ignore them (barring an ambush), which means you can quickly get into areas you probably shouldn't be getting into. IC for one is a really long dungeon, so there's a lot of time for monsters in there to build up in power; you start out against monsters in the upper 20s level-wise and by the Monastery and beyond you're facing monsters in the mid to upper 30s. So, you're jumping nearly ten levels from the start of IC to the end of it... and God help you if you're still at the level appropriate for the lower end of IC by the time you're rushed to the Monastery.

As elaboration, consider a skill that can effectively teleport you from one end of IC to the other with little to no gaining of XP along the way. Consider what this can do to a party of players who are at the appropriate level for the first part of the dungeon but are in the next to last part because of said skill. They either end up in a 'oh god they just reduced the main tank to a fine mist in six seconds flat please help us' situation, they sponge off of players who are actually at an appropriate level, or they reluctantly ask a monk to send them back to Hassen so they can get back to the Monastery without running at the first sign of conflict (possibly gaining the levels needed to actually survive there in the process).

Now think of it again with PoP and Enlightenment, except the skill is (was) a massive amount of XP that allowed underlevelled players to be brought up to speed... so they can attempt to Retreat their way into Magora's inner sanctum in the interest of 'oh god I am allergic to pacing myself' or 'oh god I've already been through here seven times before with other characters so I need to get this out of the way ASAP'.

[doc]

The only problem with this is you can't leave the Tower once you enter it Unenlightened. Or get to Titans unenlightened.

[Hiroshima]

hence the point, doc.

[Not]

hiroshima said:

hence the point, doc.

Well, its a bit unfair if you decide not to get enlightened but are forced to and once you return to the monastery you find you can no longer party with people. Why not limit something such as buying Tote equipment, using the inn to heal, or being able to use the rest option outside of tote while being unenlightened?(The pits of pain area and such)

[Rand]

I'm sorry for the late reply, various computer issues with building this new toy of mine. The fact of the matter is that enlightenment is supposed to happen as per the story. I personally don't care if you like it or not that you can't party with unenlightened people once that happens. And enlightened people would have an easier time training unenlightened, thus making that part of the area easy to level other people, thus pretty much a powerleveling in a sense, thus not acceptable. Enlightenment...damn it, think of it as the Mark to get to the Cathedral. No mark, no progression of story, BECAUSE THEY ARE LINKED. Same with Enlightenment. Is this finally understood now?