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Post by Sur Realis on Jul 19, 2008 14:13:27 GMT -6
EVERYONE THAT READS THIS POST - I WANT YOUR OPINION ON WHAT I HAVE TYPED HERE.
After a discussion with Gabriel Penitence of late, I got to thinking about Thieves. To put it bluntly, they suck. Yes, it is true. No bloody way around this. They have minimal HP, worse Vitality, coupled with horrible armor choices. Their Agility further in the game is pointless of the enemies that "never miss", and their Strength is subpar. Their Skillset is just an abomination.
The Thief has more passive skills going for them than attack skills. First, there is Pick Pocket. This skill does not help the Thief in any way (unless that Thief were for some reason clamoring for gold), and comes in at a Level that gold becomes less and less of a problem globally. Not only this, but IF it were to activate, Pick Pocket only takes a fixed amount of gold, which in the rare cases it activates, ends up being a very minimal amount of gold via the enemies that give little gold. Why? The enemies that give a lot of gold are usually the enemies to die first because they are usually the enemies that are most threatening to any one party. The two exceptions are Gold/Silver Guards, in the ICs, but the only reason anyone would sanely train there would obviously be because they have a Black Mage to annihilate all the Guards in the first turn.
Then there is Silent Retreat, the only reason 50% of Thieves are in fact Thieves. It is the glamorous ability that allows a Thief to always run from a battle. It is also the glamorous ability that makes ambushes to seem more frequent than usual because minutes aren't being spent on a battle. A controversial skill - The Brotherhood wants it gone, but it's the only thing, to the casual Thief but somewhat experienced player, that makes being a Thief worthwhile.
There is also Cutthroat. At first looks, when separated from everything that is Thief, this skill looks Godly. No more WEAK hits? Gladly. But there are multiple problems that conflict with this skill and make it damned near useless. First of all is that it comes at such a late level. I hope I need not stress why this is a problem. There is also the fact that the Thief's main, and only skill, for most of its existence completely denies the need for Cutthroat. Finally, there's the point that not only does a Thief, if he or she were to attack normally, have problems with WEAK hits like every other class, but their high HIT standard, 10 HITs, leaves for a large range, that puts them below substandard to pretty alright damage depending on how many HITs get in. Taking away the ability to land WEAK hits only leaves for 5- or 6-HIT attacks to take over, as they both diminish attack damage on a large scale.
Camouflage, at a respective view, stands out to be the most useless skill of the Thief in that there is never wont to use it as not only is it's effect only barely par to what Hide does, it also denies the ability of the Thief to use his or her main, and only, skill, Backstab. Be that as it may, the skill still remains it's uses, and albeit could be much better, there are other subjects that could be left for bigger improvement. In the point that there are theoretical situations that are plausible that this could come in handy puts it above Pick Pocket and Cutthroat.
Bloody Murder. The first skill that has to do with attacking since Kingdom Come. And it sucks. What better way to end the twenty-five level drought of attack skills than with an attack that fails 20-60% of the time? Sure, it is VERY useful. If it hits. It takes out Middle Demons pretty well. If it hits. Even using it on a Dragon can have benefits. If it hits. But the entire existence of Bloody Murder pushes the Thief even further down the road of RNG-Based-Shit. To be exact, as soon as your Thief hits Hassen, it is pure undeniable luck whether or not you will be useful to the party. In the land where a single spell and a stray attack will knock you out of Hide and incapacitate your ability to do productive damage, the Thief runs on a barrel of luck at this point on if they will live or die, kill or 'plant.
~Intermission of Skills~
In my opinion, builds on a Thief are futile. I've tried quite a few, really: Str HP:Str:Str HP:Str:Agi HP:Agi HP:Str Agi:Str Agi
I've deduced from all those builds that no matter what, there is one fatal flaw in any build you could create for the Thief, it doesn't remedy the Luck Factor rampant for Mona. This is the Magic-Attack relationship. To be precise, the better you will live against magic attacks directed at you, you will in turn not be able to kill those magic users in time to survive because your Str dwindles. If you have the Str to kill the magic users in time, you in turn won't live the magic attacks blasted at you anyway. If you choose HP:Str, you aren't quite quick enough to take out the quick magic-users. If you choose Agi:Str, you won't live any attacks after making your move. Because of this, the Thief can not live be pure hard fact but they live entirely on luck - there is no 'better' build for Thieves, there are luckier players.
Subpar HP, Str, and Vit as compared to other classes, and as compared to enemies, infinitesimal HP, Str, Vit, and subpar Agi. If you concentrate on any one area, the other areas are exploitable globally. If you concentrate on two or more areas, then you don't have the chance to reinforce them near enough. I am open to hear opinions on this subject, and I would love to be proved wrong.
~Intermission Over~
Backstab, the first attack skill that Thieves receive, also, when separated from everything that is a Thief, also sounds Godly. Instant Crit, costing 1 MP, gained at such an early level? What's the catch? The catch is the fact that you have to be Hidden to use it, and you can't be Hidden if you are under 1/3 of your Max HP, which is where the Thief ends up after one simple attack in many unfortunate circumstances. A single Critical can take away Hide - sometimes even before the Thief gets a chance to Backstab. This would be a great, usable, abusable skill if it weren't for the limitations bestowed upon it by the skill known as Hide.
Hide, in turn, is what depicts if the Thief lives or dies. A Thief in Hide status is safe. When Hidden, a Thief can do respectable damage to the enemies, or so much as completely wipe them out from the battle field if they feel lucky. Again, we are back at the subject of luck. The Thief unlucky enough to get hit enough to lose Hide is, in most cases through my experiences, hopeless. It is almost impossible to recover from this situation, no matter the party. Why? It takes so much as 3 turns to get back to attacking the enemy after losing Hide, assuming he or she has the MP for it.
-Defend and Rest for HP. This is where Agi kills the Thief, by putting them before any healers. -Hide once more. -Backstab.
That's two entire turns for the enemy to knock the Thief back on its ass and make the Thief start the process over. And because the enemy did it once, it is very simple for it to occur again. This is where the Thief is based on luck.
Pressure Attack is the only attack skill Thieves get that have strategical values in it. It is the only attack that does not beg luck, does not call down the RNG to piss on the Thief. Pressure Attack, putting the enemy to sleep, is the only thing that makes a Thief deserve a spot in a party because with this skill, the need to Hide becomes almost nonexistent. Why Hide only to put yourself in trouble to repeat the very process that fucks the Thief over when you can put the enemy to sleep while doing some nice damage to it and actually benefit the party rather than be a leech?
But where this is the only thing that makes the Thief practical, it is illogically slated for Level 50.
On the subject of builds again, creating a build for a Thief, for uses practical to areas before Hassen, is much different from any other class. Whereas, if you aren't a lazy fuck, when you create a Fighter you have to think of how you want to build the Fighter to make use of Block and still be a slaughterhouse. When you make a Knight, you question how to make use of your skills. With the Black Mage, you need to ask if it is more important to have more power behind the magic, or be able to get more magic out sooner. With the Thief, there is one skill that affects the build in any way - Silent Retreat. There is no build to utilize Backstab. No build to utilize Hide. The Thief must be built in the stance of what weakness would one rather cover.
What say you? Thoughts and input welcome.
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Andrex
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Andrex The Black Mage
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Post by Andrex on Jul 19, 2008 16:31:54 GMT -6
That is a well-built report you made, Sur Realis. I have never tried a thief character before, so I cannot add any input into this, but if everything you said is true (and why shouldn't it be?), then they sure don't sound very useful. I suppose you could build a party that could protect him, but that is too much trouble, and those parties break up eventually by people logging on and off. Are you suggesting the thief's build be changed, or are you meaning this to be purely informative?
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Post by Vahu on Jul 19, 2008 20:34:13 GMT -6
This is exactly why, after reading any of Sub Realis's thief posts, I neglect training my thief in the cathedral. I have never used a thief for very long without boredom and frustration.
Frankly, I don't see a good use to thieves aside from running; and killing faster enemies quickly. Their best stats, agility and dexterity, help them to do rather well, depending on the build. I would like to see their agility be put to better use, buts it is hard to come up with a new idea that can achieve this.
The fact that you must hide (at least most of the time, unless you are overleveled) in every battle really will push most people away from even touching a thief. You basically have to waste a turn to apply an effect that can diminish just like that with either bad luck or an extended period of time. The fact that it dispels on its own means you have to waste more time and mp to reapply it (given you aren't nearly dead already) and is a major pain in long battles (typically, ambushes). I like to think that thieves rely on survival skills but the fact that there is no Auto hide in certain situations where survival is a top priority (aka Mona), it is nowhere to be seen and pretty much screws over thieves in general. Skill of the unseen does makes this a little bit more bearable, but then again, whats the point?
Given the fact that bloody murder will be taken out (which is a good thing) and silent retreat will be nerfed in the upcoming version, its is hard to say how useful a thief will be left with their current abilities. Backstab is the thieves' primary choice of attack and is quite useful. Obviously, the downside is that you must be hidden to use it. Cutthroat is a good passive skill to have, but unfortunately, it is underappreciated as Sub Realis pointed out, as thieves rarely have reason to "attack." Pressure attack is really the best attack they have. Very useful against large chaotics.
I can only hope that these problems are remedied in version 8. And I'm quite sure that the Brotherhood can accomplish this.
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Post by Sur Realis on Jul 20, 2008 3:37:47 GMT -6
That is a well-built report you made, Sur Realis. I have never tried a thief character before, so I cannot add any input into this, but if everything you said is true (and why shouldn't it be?), then they sure don't sound very useful. I suppose you could build a party that could protect him, but that is too much trouble, and those parties break up eventually by people logging on and off. Are you suggesting the thief's build be changed, or are you meaning this to be purely informative? Actually, I wanted to put out my thoughts, opinions, and analysis of the Thief in general, and I wanted to see everyone's replies. I think that the Thief needs an entire re-imaging, so to say, and almost all of their skills need to be changed heavily to make the Thief of any use. Adding to the Thief one or two attacks will not help because they will still suffer that same fatal flaw, which is what I want to target and make it more of a nuisance than a flaw. This is exactly why, after reading any of Sub Realis's thief posts, I neglect training my thief in the cathedral. I have never used a thief for very long without boredom and frustration. Frankly, I don't see a good use to thieves aside from running; and killing faster enemies quickly. Their best stats, agility and dexterity, help them to do rather well, depending on the build. I would like to see their agility be put to better use, buts it is hard to come up with a new idea that can achieve this. The fact that you must hide (at least most of the time, unless you are overleveled) in every battle really will push most people away from even touching a thief. You basically have to waste a turn to apply an effect that can diminish just like that with either bad luck or an extended period of time. The fact that it dispels on its own means you have to waste more time and mp to reapply it (given you aren't nearly dead already) and is a major pain in long battles (typically, ambushes). I like to think that thieves rely on survival skills but the fact that there is no Auto hide in certain situations where survival is a top priority (aka Mona), it is nowhere to be seen and pretty much screws over thieves in general. Skill of the unseen does makes this a little bit more bearable, but then again, whats the point? Given the fact that bloody murder will be taken out (which is a good thing) and silent retreat will be nerfed in the upcoming version, its is hard to say how useful a thief will be left with their current abilities. Backstab is the thieves' primary choice of attack and is quite useful. Obviously, the downside is that you must be hidden to use it. Cutthroat is a good passive skill to have, but unfortunately, it is underappreciated as Sub Realis pointed out, as thieves rarely have reason to "attack." Pressure attack is really the best attack they have. Very useful against large chaotics. I can only hope that these problems are remedied in version 8. And I'm quite sure that the Brotherhood can accomplish this. I don't mean to say that you shouldn't play a Thief - though I do put them down to extents that every class outdoes them in almost every way, save Dex, I don't mean to say it is stupid playing as a Thief. They do contribute to the party, but I've found only when there's a party around them to save face for the innumerable possibilities of luck to kill the Thief. In fact, all I did was speak of the bad parts of the Thief. The good, albeit infinitesimal also, still exists. Notable things would be their high Dex, which led my Thief at Level 36 having dealt more damage to Geyzer than a Level 49 Knight before my Thief died. Bloody Murder gives the Thief to take out annoying small enemies, such as Middle Demons, and the such. There is the unspoken fact that they have SR, which is good for things outside of being an SR-Bitch. When Sur Realis was in TotE, very often would she Run because bad luck hit the party like a donkey kick in winter.
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wizkid17
Explorer
Ben The Great the Paladin Knight
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Post by wizkid17 on Jul 21, 2008 0:29:35 GMT -6
To me, theives are worthless. I dont see any point in having them.
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Post by Sur Realis on Jul 21, 2008 3:19:51 GMT -6
To me, theives are worthless. I dont see any point in having them. They aren't worthless. They have plenty ofa couple oftwo things going for them that make them a nice addition.
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Caoineag
Explorer
もうすこしがんばりましょ
Posts: 67
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Post by Caoineag on Jul 29, 2008 13:41:50 GMT -6
I agree with most of the points here. Hell, from the silence, I think pretty much everyone agrees. As I recall, the general Brotherhood stance is that 'thieves will be substantially different in V8'. I doubt we'll be getting any teasers or spoilers, no matter how badly we crave the assurance. I've already posted what few ideas I've had for improving thieves here[/b], here[/b], and here[/b]. But yeah, I realize they don't entirely address the underlying problems, since they were just random things and not thought of in an overall context. All I can say for the thief devotees is... hang in there, and hopefully your day will come. In the meantime, best of luck to you. You'll need it.
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Post by Bolt on Aug 2, 2008 20:44:46 GMT -6
What I'm about to say may offend some of people but I could give a rat's ass.
The main thing I keep hearing is that a theif's only GOOD skill is Silent Retreat. If you make a theif for this skill alone DELETE IT! You're just going to keep using it anyway since you need to lvl it up and make sure it won't die. The whole thing with "wasting a turn to use Hide" is stupid. Hide makes you harder to hit, by FFHG standards. Hell a thief, as I've shown plenty of people, can easily keep a party going due to the agility. WM dead and alot fo the party in critical? Theif can just finish off the remaining things pretty easily. On average a theif, if built right, can dish out roughly 2k damage in roughly 3 turns. This is at ToTE by the way. Anyone who brings up my bluemage alt for that damage is an idiot.
Seriously if everyone has a problem with theives contact me on MSN and I'll give you a run for your damn money. Theives may not be the powerhouse you expect from a Knight or Fighter, may not be as dangerous as a Blackmage, but they damn sure can dish damage out easier than the other melee classes. Due to their high dexterity they have, what seems anyway, a 95% hit rate. The times they DO miss its usually against somethin with HIGH AGILITY. A great example are Demon Smokes. They have very high agility and usually dodge any form of melee hit.
Compair a Theif and Knight. Theives will hit the monster or w/e with a high success rate. A Knight, on the other hand, has a moderate success rate. This is WITHOUT BUFFS OR ANY KIND. How FFHG is set up it makes the Theif class seem pointless. Yes its a turn based-game like most FF games, but agility only helps with when you go durin the round. Most FF games it speeds up the ATB bar, weither one is present or invisible.
Back to FFHG. Theives get weaker armor compair to the heavy hitters, excluding Dragoons, for one reason. THEY ARE MENT TO BE NIMBLE NOT STUCK IN THEIR TRACKS! A Knight needs the heavy armor to compinsate for its low speed so it can take damage. A Theif needs light armor to compinsate for its high speed so it isn't hindered. Giveing someone fast and of moderate strength a heavy item would be stupid. Giving someone slow and very strong something light would be stupid. Hell without the heavy armor you can call every melee class a theif with different skills and weapons.
Again, anyone who thinks a Theif is useless is a complete dumbass. I've proven time and time again how useful a theif can be WITHOUT Silent Retreat. I guess I'm the only person who has made an excellent theif build. God its so damn old seein the same shit over and over again.
Thats basicly all I got on this. If anyone has a record of the old "Theives Suck" agrument let me know or post it. That has the good reasons I had.
'The King of Theives', Bolt
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Caoineag
Explorer
もうすこしがんばりましょ
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Post by Caoineag on Aug 2, 2008 22:43:30 GMT -6
Hands up those who didn't see that response coming.
However, to be more specific...
You begin by saying that thieves can be powerhouses (2k damage) and are good in specific group situations (cleanup when others are exhausted), then follow up by saying that thieves aren't powerhouses and shouldn't be considered in the context of other party members (or at least, you shouldn't consider buffs as relevant).
As far as that goes, though, in terms of survivability and accuracy, dragoons and fighters exceed thieves in both categories.
As for their evasion, it's a non-issue in later areas where magic is considerably more hazardous, and anyway is generally not enough to keep them alive for very long, even with hide.
It is "possible" for a thief to go through a fight untouched, but it's also just as likely that they'll be criticaled in the second turn before they backstab, effectively doing nothing for both turns.
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Post by Bolt on Aug 3, 2008 0:22:18 GMT -6
I rarely see any Theif in a critical state right before backstab once you hit IC. Before that theres a high chance, but most healers still can't heal as much or don't heal at all thinkin that said person isn't worth wastin mp for. Happened to one of my theif experiments. Theives can be powerhouses, while at the same time can't. Without any strength added they're just a bluemage without magic, no joke. Hell I've seen Knights die more often than most Theives. I didn't include Fighters due to block.
Hell if I wanted to be a complete asshole I could say theres no point to ANY class. The only class which could even make it to being "useful" would be a whitemage. But thats very slim. I'll go into all of that bullshit if needed.
Due to my better judgement I haven't complained about this whole topic much due to the fact that its all opinion based. I'll be damned if I let somethin like this go without a fucking response from me. What a suggestion from me? If you think a Theif sucks DON'T USE THEM. Keep your opinion to yourself. A Theif takes a lot more thinking to use rather than a Knight, Whitemage, etc.
Now that I think about it, only person who figured out how to make an excellent theif besides me was Erb. I know another person did, but I can't recall his name right now. He added HP thats all I can recall. Oh and before you say anythin Sur, you can't add your old theif due to deleting it.
Heres a fun fact too, a Theif and Dragoon HAVE THE SAME ARMOR CHOICES. Bet very few people knew that. "But a Dragoon doesn't need armor since it Jumps all the time" Hell if I recall Jump came during the round, not at the beginning.
This is the what, 3rd or 4th time this topic has rose up on the fourms? Can't remember how they ended though.
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Post by Ambush Magnet on Aug 3, 2008 4:35:11 GMT -6
And I think that's part of the Thief problem... 99% of all players who have a Thief (myself included) have no idea how to build one. You can't just go with simple builds like all Str, or Str:HP, and expect them to work all the way to the endgame like you can with some other classes.
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Caoineag
Explorer
もうすこしがんばりましょ
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Post by Caoineag on Aug 3, 2008 9:46:26 GMT -6
Points for an impassioned response, anyway.
Unfortunately your arguments are what would be called "conjectural" in law, "anecdotal" in science, and "begging the question" in logical debate. None of those is a good thing.
Nota Bene: swearing doesn't make it true
[edit]Anyhow. I doubt anyone else really cares much about this thread, so you can have the final say if you like, and I'd humbly request a lock after that, if the forum moderators are willing. I don't think there's much left to say.[/edit]
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Post by Divusmors on Aug 3, 2008 13:38:44 GMT -6
Towards the end, thieves actually end up with a few more defense points than a goon.
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Post by Bolt on Aug 3, 2008 18:01:05 GMT -6
Debates don't interest me since you need to stick to "guidelines". A Dragoon is a warrior so they need a little extra defense than a theif does.
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Post by Kyou on Aug 4, 2008 13:25:05 GMT -6
Now that I think about it, only person who figured out how to make an excellent theif besides me was Erb.
"cough"
....
That hurt ...
Anyways, Sil had a good thief too. My thief was the Alt to my Bluey so he was one of the first to make it to ToTE. He wasn't too shabby, now though, he doesn't have any points put in him (since the 50mil drop) and I'm waiting for the advance classes to be out before I use them. So I will have the Uber Thief Advancorz!!!11oneoneuno
Edit: and for those that want a decent thief build
2 Strength, 1 HP, 1 Agi every 2 levels.
This gives the theif decent strength, pretty good agility, and also some extra padding against magic.
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Post by Sur Realis on Aug 4, 2008 13:50:07 GMT -6
What I'm about to say may offend some of people but I could give a rat's ass. The main thing I keep hearing is that a theif's only GOOD skill is Silent Retreat. If you make a theif for this skill alone DELETE IT! You're just going to keep using it anyway since you need to lvl it up and make sure it won't die. The whole thing with "wasting a turn to use Hide" is stupid. Hide makes you harder to hit, by FFHG standards. Hell a thief, as I've shown plenty of people, can easily keep a party going due to the agility. WM dead and alot fo the party in critical? Theif can just finish off the remaining things pretty easily. On average a theif, if built right, can dish out roughly 2k damage in roughly 3 turns. This is at ToTE by the way. Anyone who brings up my bluemage alt for that damage is an idiot. Seriously if everyone has a problem with theives contact me on MSN and I'll give you a run for your damn money. Theives may not be the powerhouse you expect from a Knight or Fighter, may not be as dangerous as a Blackmage, but they damn sure can dish damage out easier than the other melee classes. Due to their high dexterity they have, what seems anyway, a 95% hit rate. The times they DO miss its usually against somethin with HIGH AGILITY. A great example are Demon Smokes. They have very high agility and usually dodge any form of melee hit. Compair a Theif and Knight. Theives will hit the monster or w/e with a high success rate. A Knight, on the other hand, has a moderate success rate. This is WITHOUT BUFFS OR ANY KIND. How FFHG is set up it makes the Theif class seem pointless. Yes its a turn based-game like most FF games, but agility only helps with when you go durin the round. Most FF games it speeds up the ATB bar, weither one is present or invisible. Back to FFHG. Theives get weaker armor compair to the heavy hitters, excluding Dragoons, for one reason. THEY ARE MENT TO BE NIMBLE NOT STUCK IN THEIR TRACKS! A Knight needs the heavy armor to compinsate for its low speed so it can take damage. A Theif needs light armor to compinsate for its high speed so it isn't hindered. Giveing someone fast and of moderate strength a heavy item would be stupid. Giving someone slow and very strong something light would be stupid. Hell without the heavy armor you can call every melee class a theif with different skills and weapons. Again, anyone who thinks a Theif is useless is a complete dumbass. I've proven time and time again how useful a theif can be WITHOUT Silent Retreat. I guess I'm the only person who has made an excellent theif build. God its so damn old seein the same shit over and over again. Thats basicly all I got on this. If anyone has a record of the old "Theives Suck" agrument let me know or post it. That has the good reasons I had. 'The King of Theives', Bolt I am fairly damned sure, Bolt, that I NEVER stated the Thief as useless. If I did, feel free to point it out, as I don't remember because I made this analysis about two weeks ago. In fact, yes, Thieves can be useful. Their usefulness is only situational, though. What you have claimed as a Knight dying more often as a Thief I blame the fact the Knight having less knowledge and skill and vision as the Thief. No matter what you say, knowing THG back and front like the people who are useful no matter what the class handed to them is very globally valuable. The Knight has a lot going for them, and that as an aside there is a lot of foresight to battle overall. The Knight's choices in attacking is fairly overwhelming; Dice, Defonce, Retort, Slash, Frenzy, Puree, et cetera. They have something for every situation and THEN some. There are times where sometimes the Knight's best choice is to defend when all seems well - the Knight is a lot about foresight and exploit. I wouldn't call the Thief useless as much as limited. Their use is only as extensive as the situation - it's a lot like an earlier argument I made somewhere else. There are just some things that no matter amount of foresight can save your ass. Even psychic people eventually fall into the trap of death, there is no way to avoid it. You can have the foresight of a Knight to know what's going to happen next, but you don't have anything to do for that matter. I discussed in the post, which I kind of doubt you actually read, how much the Thief is completely luck driven to be lucky, with a large majority of their skills useless in the long run, based entirely on luck, or based by extension on luck and leading to a trap hole. Sure, a Thief CAN handle things well - but that one slip of luck leads to an endless irrecoverable trap unless you have a White Mage with you, which was slightly outside my analysis. The Thief has potential, but not efficiency. For example, U. Dye and Rosa. Basically an unstoppable duo, right? I'm not sure if I can IMAGINE either of these characters actually dead. He just knows the game so well - sure, some people might know it better, but I haven't actually partied with them. He's extremely efficient in battle. So much that he's become a freakin' legend. That sure as hell wouldn't have happened if U. Dye were a Thief, rather than a Knight. Now, if you compare the Thief to any one class, you can find something the Thief has on top of the class. A well-built Thief, sure, is pretty good, I'll admit. The problem, though, is the well-built part. But from a completely logical stand point, anyone sane would choose the Knight over the Thief; the Knight has little tricks to boost his ability to hit enemies. The Thief has an instant-critical-suicide-knife. The Knight has more attack power than the Thief. More HP. More defense. The Thief has more MP than the Knight. The Thief is a lot faster than the Knight. When you leave it this vague, you'd think they are equal. I'll strike each point out that the Thief has something over the Knight one by one. 1) Instant-critical. The Hide phenomena which in a bad-case scenario equals infinite fail, does very little to help the Thief defense-wise, and takes an entire turn to activate and can go poof on you at any time. 2) More MP. That isn't really put to good use. You have three choices to use MP past Hide: Backstab, Bloody Murder, Pressure Attack. Bloody Murder is entirely luck. Backstab, see 1. Pressure Attack drains MP, but is the only thing truly useful. 3) A lot faster. Countered by never-missing magic and end-game enemies that tend to have Inf.#1 Attack Speed. By this, I mean, you have to be in the upper 50s - Levels for the NEXT area of the game not yet implemented, with a heavy Agi build to reliably dodge, with or without Hide. The Knight has ways to compensate for missing a lot. Slash, Frenzy, Retort. The Thief does not have ways to compensate for it's flaws here. Note I have not called the Thief useless, but rather stated that there is no way to make up for the flaws you can encounter as a Thief. Shall I go into detail comparing the Thief to the other 8 classes and why the Thief would be the least preferred?
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Post by Bolt on Aug 6, 2008 15:02:40 GMT -6
If you don't want to waste a turn usine Hide just use PRessure Attack. YOU DON'T NEED HIDE FOR THAT.
Oh and Kyou I was sayin more for a Main rather than an Alt. Sure people have theif alts but I don't bother looking at them as "good" more as....can't think of the word. I didn't make that clear so I understand ya thinkin that. BUt the point still stands that Erb and I have the only great theif builds. I went to great rather than excellent since I don't want a shitload of posts sayin "I have an excellent theif build too!" I COUNT MAINS ONLY IN THAT SENSE!
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Post by mrfroggy on Aug 6, 2008 22:53:42 GMT -6
I do think that thieves are nearly useless, and agree to some extent. Thieves are a good use for gold-runners, TotE/Mona runners, and for killing smaller chaotics. If you are building a character to do epic damage, and live, that was your only flaw in the first place. Thieves will not often do epic damage, and will often face-plant. To anyone that has a great "thief build," I say you are lying. If you built a thief in the first place, you have killed any chance of greatness.
The best thieves in the game are not those who have great builds, but have the greatest amount of grace, charm, and willingness to fail many times to succeed. Your thief won't be spectacular, but any thief I see in tote raises my eyebrow to find a person who has a few great qualities in them to get that far.
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Post by Sur Realis on Aug 6, 2008 23:06:36 GMT -6
If you don't want to waste a turn usine Hide just use PRessure Attack. YOU DON'T NEED HIDE FOR THAT. Thanks for the knowledge of a skill that can't be put to use until Level, what? Level FIFTY. Count the fucking levels before Pressure Attack. One. Two. Three. Four. Five. Six. Seven. Eight. Nine. Ten. Eleven. Twelve. Thirteen. Fourteen. Fifteen. Sixteen. Seventeen. Eighteen. Nineteen. Twenty. Twenty-one. Twenty-two. Twenty-three. Twenty-four. Twenty-five. Twenty-six. Twenty-seven. Twenty-eight. Twenty-nine. Thirty. Thirty-one. Thirty-two. Thirty-three. Thirty-four. Thirty-five. Thirty-six. Thirty-seven. Thirty-eight. Thirty-nine. Forty. Forty-one. Forty-two. Forty-three. Forty-four. Forty-five. Forty-six. Forty-seven. Forty-eight. Forty-nine. Raise your hand if you think that is A LOT OF LEVELS before getting the single class-breaking skill to make the Thief somewhat less of a trap-shit. All things considered, Bolt, you being Level... 56, was it? You've had Pressure Attack for SEVEN levels as compared to the FORTY-NINE levels you didn't have it. I notice that ALL the Thieves being called 'good' or having 'great' builds or what you want to state as 'excellent' actually survived the game long enough and stuck to the class all the way to TotE where most people do indeed (eventually) hit Level 50. Level 50. That's the same level as Psychostorm 3. Most every class that has a crap-shoot skill that dishes out a shitload of damage in one turn gets it before Level 50. Pearl? Nuke? Frenzy? Crush? Et cetera et cetera et cetera. So while you are telling me if I don't want to Hide to use Pressure Attack, you forget to think that the LARGE majority of Thieves in action are nowhere NEAR Pressure Attack, and are thus stuck with the catch-22 that is Hide.
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Post by mrfroggy on Aug 6, 2008 23:29:25 GMT -6
Level 50 is a long ways to go to get a skill to make thieves worthy. You are talking about not only being in TotE by that point, but also being past the point that many characters have already faced Magora, and won. If you beat Magora before that point, or even after, it was likely due to your party pulling something out of their hat rather than you being a Soylent-Skin Rug. Every class in the game has some chance of causing damage to Magora, or lasting against the ugly Cycloptic rub-train except for a thief, which will likely die in a few turns. At least let the thief be useful against the demons at that point, since it can't do a damn thing to Magora.
I don't like the other skills relying on hide as it seems to weaken a thief. The fact that hide must be in play to use bloody murder or backstab only makes the thief now have to deal with re-hiding, as well as reserving mp, staying alive, and being useful. Hide itself does nothing that a thief's natural build doesn't already do, as a thief has great agility, and will likely avoid many physical attacks anyway. Taking damage that agility alone won't avoid is nothing that hide will likely help, and nothing that getting magi-spammed won't destroy anyway.
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Post by Bolt on Aug 7, 2008 22:59:42 GMT -6
A theif's natural agility is pretty shitty actually. A theif at my lvl has 160 agility without points added. Besides think about it from this point of view. You think becoming hidden and then attacking would work? If anyone has played Team Fortress 2 as a Spy knows that doesn't work unless the person is a dumbass.
The way you're making it sound is Hide should work like War Cry, being able to attack the same turn its used. If I recall, and someone correct me if I recall wrong, War Cry was like Hide, you had to wait a turn before you could attack. I can't remember since I parties mostly with Knights, Dragoons, and Mages via V5 and V6. Want to know somethin too? I was one of the last of the oldbies to reach ToTE since I couldn't get there with my theif/bluemage combo since I was more worried about gettin Boost 3 and Barrior 3 off before havin the bluemage cure.
Hell this is getting close to the point of someone saying that line that pisses me off. Any oldbie would know, hell someone made a character named off that line too.
Point is, sure you have to wait till lvl 50 to get Pressure Attack but if you don't like the Hide/Backstab thing than why you even trying to get Pressure Attack? You're going to learn that Hide/Backstab out damages Pressure Attack. Hell just Attack if you don't want to bother with anything. Get a boost and you'll be hittin as hard as Backstab anyway. It just won't say "Critical" after each hit. Hell you don't even need a boost to hit as hard. Hell I know a way where people won't even bother with a theif, Make Silent Retreat availble at level 35. You get Silent Retreat at such a low level, 17 if I remember, that you don't care for training. By the time you get that skill you'll be at Mon where its pratically useless. A theif is not a powerhouse people. If it was ment to be a powerhouse than what would be the point of knights, rangers, fighters, dragoons, and mages? There wouldn't be. You'd be dealing high damage while dodging most attacks. Hell if a theif dies from magic with healers in the party, someone isn't playing their class right.
The re-hiding issue? Don't bother re-hiding cause if you lost it from taking damage, you have a high chance of losing it again. Just attack untill your hp is high, atleast 75%, before you reuse it. If you lose due to it being 5 turns go ahead and reapply it.
Know what I find funny? No one says anything about the other classes. Sure they may be more reliable in battle but you don't just talk trash on one class and not the others. It shows how stupid you can be. All you're doing is compairing classes that don't even fit in the same category. No point in finishing my thought on that because, knowing how people are, you'll just take apart my text just so you can make yourself feel better and "point out flawed logic.
Seriously, next time you're going to downtalk the Theif class, downtalk another class in the same manner. Its not worth carrying this fight on since people hate the Theif class in general and only find usefullness in it because of Silent Retreat.
I think I've said enough. Anyone who continues this is a dumbass and needs to go outside. I'm so tired of seeing this topic arise time and time again. Getting to the point of being insulting.
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Post by Sur Realis on Aug 7, 2008 23:38:35 GMT -6
I would just like to point out you've proven what I said about the Thief being a 'party class', totally dependent on others.
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Post by mrfroggy on Aug 8, 2008 0:54:01 GMT -6
I don't talk trash about other classes? Oh really?
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Post by Bolt on Aug 8, 2008 1:33:26 GMT -6
Uhh I was talking to everyone in general about trashtalking classes dumbass. (Froggy)
All classes are party dependent. So that point is invalid right when you were typing it. A Knight can't solo around Mon. A Fighter can't either. Both examples are lvls you'd see around there, namely lvl 35-40. So in reality, all classes are party depentant. Don't even say Dragoons either since they'll run out of MP and be defenseless while everythin pelts them durin the turn it has to defend for MP. That owuld be the ONLY class that could be agrued to solo. PR would agrue that a Ranger could survive on its own, which could be true. Only those two classes could be agrued to solo.
If you can prove that any class that I didn't say could be agrued could solo, show me. Mages will run out of MP sooner or later and get mauled. Knights will get mauled without someone healin, same with a Fighter.
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Post by Divusmors on Aug 8, 2008 1:44:34 GMT -6
Blue mages can. Lunnarian has proven that fact by soloing Magora, and being under level 60 when he did. By the time the ranger can solo the Ice Caverns, he'll have grizzly. At that same level, the blue mage will have barrier3, which makes even the slow black mage able to solo with minor difficulty. Many players in the past are a testiment to this. Doc, for example. Reap was pretty well off too. Shopu did great from what I remember. Crazy Cloud knew where to hit and when, Vertigas held his own, and SubZerO did as well.
If you want to get down to the nit'n'griddy, a white mage has a fair chance depending on build. Stack half to full agility AND fast3? And forget the spells, resist elements throws off what monster often use half the time, and at those speeds it'll be pretty hard press to put a white mage down before it cures. Although, I do not think that one's been tried. Maybe I'll take a jab at it someday. A pure hit point fighter might be able to, but it's questionable. The whole point is reduce as many small monsters quickly, and rampage spam the larges, using defend as the means of it. That one.. I don't give a lot of credit too, though. Magic spam hurts.
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Post by mrfroggy on Aug 8, 2008 1:54:59 GMT -6
Actually you shouldn't use such a generalization if I am not included upon it. Thank you, meanwhile, for taking the time to personally attack me to try to hide your weak argument and hasty generalization. It is great to know that my reasoning scares you. Considering that you don't know me, and will never know me, I will not take your cheap-shot with offense.
Furthermore, dragoons can solo at almost any point in the game, especially at Titans. I would like to see a thief ever solo in Titans at all. Even white mages can solo in Titans, to a lesser degree, but a thief is just rug-bait. While there is no class that can perfectly solo, it is obvious that the thief is at the bottom of that list, and that dragoons are near the top. Just because there are rare occasions that a dragoon runs out of mp doesn't define it as being "party-depending" while a thief is not.
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Post by U. Dye on Aug 8, 2008 4:26:39 GMT -6
Actually you shouldn't use such a generalization if I am not included upon it. Thank you, meanwhile, for taking the time to personally attack me to try to hide your weak argument and hasty generalization. It is great to know that my reasoning scares you. Considering that you don't know me, and will never know me, I will not take your cheap-shot with offense. Alright, I can see the beginnings of a flame war here. I may not be wearing robes but I am gonna say knock it off right now. That goes for you too Bolt. Nobody wants to see it. And while nobody's forcing anyone to come into the thread and look at it, it IS still nicely advertised on the forum index when a new post is made here, which is essentially forum mechanics throwing it in our faces. I'm not saying don't have your discussion... I really can't say that, because I'm about to comment on it. But if you wanna have at each other, we have PMs for that. Furthermore, dragoons can solo at almost any point in the game, especially at Titans. Yes, they can... as long as the MP holds out. Once they're stuck on the ground, shit can go awry real fast... especially at Titans. I would like to see a thief ever solo in Titans at all. Even white mages can solo in Titans, to a lesser degree, but a thief is just rug-bait. Actually a WM would likely get ripped apart by the heavy melee damage, unless it was built for speed/defense and managed to get some defensive spells up before the crits started landing. While this is entirely possible... you're basically having to build your character around fighting monsters in one area. And this makes sense, how? It doesn't, to me. While there is no class that can perfectly solo, it is obvious that the thief is at the bottom of that list, and that dragoons are near the top. Yup... Thieves are right down there with Fighters, Knights, Blackbelts (don't give me Mantra as an excuse; face it, at endgame it's not gonna do you any good)... So yeah, Thieves are right in there with the other melee classes. Hm. Makes you wonder. Just because there are rare occasions that a dragoon runs out of mp doesn't define it as being "party-depending" while a thief is not. See previous paragraph. Pretty much any class that can't Jump or lacks some way to restore a huge amount of HP or mitigate a huge amount of all types of damage is party-reliant. And honestly... I can name one skill each class possesses that's probably the sole reason, or one of VERY FEW reasons, why that class isn't what you'd consider party-reliant. Which tells me that the skill is broken and probably needs looked at.
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Post by mrfroggy on Aug 8, 2008 6:03:43 GMT -6
Actually, a good dragoon can find ways to defend, and will make plans to do so late in a solo ambush. MP is almost never an excuse. Unless you are taking a solo ambush with about 3 or more tough enemies, then the odds should be in your favor more often than not. If you have a dragoon with a high enough level, you can take some punishment. This is where skill and knowing when to hit things and, furthermore, how to hit them becomes benificial.
As for you telling me to knock it off, there is nothing to knock off. I was not the person who made a personal remark, so please stay out of it. I never made it personal, so please don't get personally involved. I don't require you to take cheap-shots from the side as well. If I wanted your moderation, I'd have asked.
As for a white mage being built for speed or defense, as long as you are not in an ambush, you can still solo decently well. Again, know how to hit and when to hit. A white mage will still stand long after a thief will faceplant. That is, again, the point that you are missing; I never said that a thief is useless, just very close to it. A thief will die more often, often die before they are of use, and be less likely to survive a battle at the same level as other classes that will survive. And, again, you missed the point that I even admitted ALL CLASSES ARE PARTY-DEPENDING! You read it this time? I just said that thieves are more-so on the range of NEEDING a party than other classes.
So there ya have it, I type something, I post it, people don't read the entire statements, and they have a remark upon it. Whatever. If you are going to blame me for what you think I say instead of what I said, don't read my posts damn it.
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Post by Kija on Aug 8, 2008 12:20:42 GMT -6
Although U. Dye is not a moderator, he gave some good advice. Although Bolt could have done far better with the dumbass comments, which I am hoping he will discontinue, mrfroggy's responses do not help the situation either. It only allows it to get worse. It is far better to stick to the discussion without any personal or general insults towards eachother.
Other classes have problems as well, but this particular thread happened to be about thieves, so it was only logical that the majority of the bashing was towards thieves and not the other classes. So, I do not think it is really neccesary to complain about such a thing.
Let us all please be allowed to continue the discussion in a calm manner before it devolves into something worse.
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Post by mrfroggy on Aug 8, 2008 12:46:49 GMT -6
Idiocy like this is the reason I have been a member of this forum for months and never posted anything until recently, and probably won't post again. I guess I'll do one better in that since I can't post without people countering the entirety of my statements in their context, I won't even bother posting at all. Idiotic statements like Bolt's don't even warrant my bother, and I no longer care.
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